Yea I will have to make a formal apology. My mind really must have blanked when I was writing that part. I must have been reliving my sideboards when I first used to play against "Sligh" about 15 years ago. And thank you I hope to keep it up with all of the other decks as well. This time all Modern Legal :)
Yeah, the lack of explosives was a concession for my plans vs other decks I do have 1 spellskite, in the maindeck but I would have to get lucky to find it early on. In the one game of hexproof i played i landed a turn 2 Spellskite which took the game.
Regarding the Bogles matchup, would your sideboard plan be:
+ 2 Blessed Alliance
+ 2 Worship
+ 1 Negate
- 2 Scavenging Ooze
- 3 Voice of Resurgence
I am primarily a Bogles and Fish player, however I have never faced the Bogles vs Retreat matchup. I believe that Bogles would have a favorable matchup against your Retreat deck (winning over 60 games in 100). This is a hunch only. And it is partially because you have no Spellskites or Engineered Explosives or Chalices in your sideboard. If you see me online (Michelle_Wong) and you are in the mood, I would welcome you challenging me to 5 matches of Bogles vs Coralhelm to see if my prediction is roughly accurate.
Fair enough, I haven't played burn since Splinter Twin was banned and I do admit I wasn't the best burn player in the world as the deck simply isn't my style of play. I only played it in a few tournaments because I needed to qualify for a event and I had like 3 left.
So I have only played vs living end a few times during leagues and never in paper so far (with this deck). When I did play vs them I sided exactly the way you did. I have tried in the past with a few other sideboard options but given my current board (which i posted) this is how i would side.
Neckfire, thank you for your comments regarding the Fish vs Burn matchup.
I am surprised that you believe that Fish players add countermagic post-board. I tend to reduce my countermagic in this matchup (always on the draw, whilst usually on the play I will leave in Mana Leak if my maindeck runs that card), because their best aggressive creatures are too fast for counter magic. Spell Pierce is the most efficient counterspell which Fish uses, and it is helpless against all their creatures. I need to answer their creatures early game, and their spells mid/late game, which makes Spell Pierce very awkward because late game they might have mana available to pay for Spell Pierce. (However, I admit that Spell Pierce can be a lifesaver against Destructive Revelry sometimes, but still I am not convinced).
I am also surprised that you believe that Burn players do not add Destructive Revelry against Fish players in Game 2. In my opinion, the Naya Burn players like to have a jolly good revelry destroying my Aether Vials (which a Fish player would not even think of siding out in this matchup in order to blowout the Eidolons and to add extra tempo and combat tricks). Plus the Naya Burn player will likely expect to face Chalice post-board. A good Naya Burn player will not come to Game 2, see Chalice resolve and think "Oh you run that card? Oops I forgot about that, my bad!".
I am not saying that you are wrong, I am just expressing my personal perspective on the Fish vs Burn matchup.
Thank you, Michelle. To echo some of what of what has been said. Spellskite is one of your best tools. Sometimes it can be a race or you can force them to deal with your creatures. That way you are taking less heat and you can try to pull out a victory.
My fault with Warmth I really thought it was in 8th. Though as I said it is not ideal anyway. I also agree with copperline gorge. That list was not something I put together but something that 5-0ed a League. Nice input, I am trying to keep these general while providing advice etc. So I will always appreciate any comments. I
Generally what I've seen fish players do is a mixture of Chalice of the Void and counterspells. While Chalice is not ideal vs Destructive Revely the odds of them having it are very slim game 2. I have also seen Fish players bring in Spellskite to protect their lords as well as Chalice of the Void.
If your build runs spreading seas this can also be a huge thorn in the burn players side as you can take them off the crucial green or white mana they need to cast a lot of their spells on time.
Hello,
To comment on few things from the article.
First, While you did say you were digging deep for this Warmth unfortunately is not a Modern legal card as it was only printed in 6th edition and Tempest.
Second, Spellskite while it is a good card from the burn players perspective actually isn't that bad of a card to see. When i played naya burn I would ignore it most of the time as your guys combined with the pump from Atarka's Command could easily finish it off. The other thing to keep in mind is during side-boarded games the matchups where Spellskite would be coming from your opponents sideboard you would be trimming on some of your creature removal generally. Or more than likely you would be shaving one of the worst burn spells in the entire deck Rift Bolt. You would replace it with cards like Skull Crack. Spellskite does not do a good job of redirecting spells that can't hit creatures.
Other than that I agree with most of the things you have to say here. Personally when i played burn i was never a fan of Copperline Gorge, as it did not turn on my Wild Nacatle but I understand why players choose to run it to save life but I always found myself willing to pay 3 to deal that to my opponent.
Hello, Thanks for commenting
So unfortunately like many decks that I love to play this decks worst matchup is probably Tron. You need to have a fast combo to kill them or be able to tutor up Ghost Quarter's to stop them. Their ability to top deck a Oblivion Stone and just wipe the board is absolutely devastating.
Another I wouldn't call it a bad matchup but a tough matchup is actually burn. Game one they are really fast and their aggressive draws can really punish this deck if you are on a mana dork plan. Sideboard games go a lot better but its still not a walk in the park.
Outside of those two matchups the deck is a very good Jundish style deck with the ability to win out of no where. It just takes a lot of practice to figure out your lines of play with the deck and which route you should be pursuing to win.
Nice article, I understand why you like this deck.
Can I ask you: Based on your playtesting and leagues, what would you say are the worst matchups that you are hoping to dodge in a competitive Modern league? Does your deck have any horrendous matchups that are very tough even post-sideboard?
You are right to believe that Spellskite is often better than Leyline of Sanctity to answer Burn. A while ago I asked two dedicated Naya Burn players which they feared most, Leyline or Spellskite, and they both answered "Spellskite!".
The card Deflecting Palm is also a fantastic answer which Naya Burn can use against Hexproof decks and Suicide Zoo. I once attacked a Naya Burn player with a 16/16 lifelinking, first striking, trampling Slippery Bogle. I said to myself: "Goodbye Naya Burn player, you die now, take that! It serves you right for playing Naya Burn. You had that coming to you!". I then saw him tap to add a red and white to his pool, and I discovered that it was me who took that 16 damage (and no lifegain due to the prevention)! Deflecting Palm = Face Palm!
Does anyone have any advice to offer a Mono Blue Merfolk player how to answer Naya Burn? I have tried adding 4 x Sun Droplets to the sideboard, which has helped sometimes but it is too weak, like fighting fire with tissues. Annul can counter the Eidolons, but it can backfire badly if you draw them too late (or draw too many copies early with no valid targets). Chalice of the Void (with 1 counter) seems strong, but it will usually just be targeted by Destructive Revelry (which is not viable on the draw, because the merfolk player will probably have taken 5 damage for that exchange due to the Eidolon damage + Destructive Revelry damage + Merfolk player will be under pressure on the draw). A Chalice for 2 counters requires 4 mana and is really lackluster, because I am probably just dead already if I use 4 mana to have no immediate effect on the board, and the Chalice with 2 counters will lock me out unless I have an active Aether Vial.
My current sideboard approach is to add a couple of Spellskites, and to increase the amount of Master of Waves and the Merfolk LORD count (adding copies of Phantasmal Image, to make my clock faster than my opponents). Your opponent will be forced to use his removal against your lords, which buys you time to blow him out with Master of Waves. The Master however is very vulnerable to Path to Exile, and I still sit on the edge of my seat despite these extra lords, trying to distract myself away from the thought that my life total is plummeting fast! On the play, I also add Chalices of the Void, but as I said above, this invites a Destructive Revelry. Thankfully the Burn players will side out their Eidolons in this matchup on the draw and possibly even on the play, because they are worried about their own life total and because Aether Vial can totally blowout the Eidolons.
Not sure Warmth is where you want to be going in defending against Modern burn. But, definitely a great primer for one like me who has been out of touch with the deck and meta for awhile.
Yeah, sorry, new isn't meant as an insult, so please don't take it as such. Like Paul said, some of the writers have been doing this a while now. "New" is only in relation to me: before my time, around my time, after my "regular" time. Everybody in the last 1-2 years is my new wave. Hopefully in the near future you'll have your own batch of writers that you call new!
Denser tables, like pricing ones, I drop in from excel, then adjust with both the rich text and html editors. After finding table properties that I liked, I saved the html and then paste it into the new tables when needed. If you would like someone to bounce some formatting off of, hit me up in the fb group.
fixed, thank you
You were missed
The Lee Sharpe link is missing
Ha its ok Josh! I just had my brain melt down that's all.
I also thought warmth was in :( Sorry about that.
Yea I will have to make a formal apology. My mind really must have blanked when I was writing that part. I must have been reliving my sideboards when I first used to play against "Sligh" about 15 years ago. And thank you I hope to keep it up with all of the other decks as well. This time all Modern Legal :)
You missed my point: Warmth is not Modern-legal. But again, very good article.
Personally I enjoy just reading about brews in the format. We all know what the meta is but seeing new cards interact is always fun.
Yeah, the lack of explosives was a concession for my plans vs other decks I do have 1 spellskite, in the maindeck but I would have to get lucky to find it early on. In the one game of hexproof i played i landed a turn 2 Spellskite which took the game.
Thanks for your sideboarding plan, it is helpful.
Regarding the Bogles matchup, would your sideboard plan be:
+ 2 Blessed Alliance
+ 2 Worship
+ 1 Negate
- 2 Scavenging Ooze
- 3 Voice of Resurgence
I am primarily a Bogles and Fish player, however I have never faced the Bogles vs Retreat matchup. I believe that Bogles would have a favorable matchup against your Retreat deck (winning over 60 games in 100). This is a hunch only. And it is partially because you have no Spellskites or Engineered Explosives or Chalices in your sideboard. If you see me online (Michelle_Wong) and you are in the mood, I would welcome you challenging me to 5 matches of Bogles vs Coralhelm to see if my prediction is roughly accurate.
Fair enough, I haven't played burn since Splinter Twin was banned and I do admit I wasn't the best burn player in the world as the deck simply isn't my style of play. I only played it in a few tournaments because I needed to qualify for a event and I had like 3 left.
For those interested in this deck this is my sieboard guide for most of the matchups in the current meta.
Infect
In: 1 ghost quarter, 3 staticaster, 2 blessed alliance, 1 negate
Out: 1 voice, 2 courser, 1 wolf run, 3 retreat
Affinity
In: 1 ghost quarter, 2 worship, 3 staticaster 2 blessed alliance
Out: 3 voice, 1 ooze, 3 retreat 1 wolf run
Dredge
In: 1 ooze, 2 worship, 3 staticaster, 3 finks
Out: 3 retreat, 4 queller, 2 pridemage
Death zoo
In: 2 worship, 3 finks, 2 blessed alliance
out: 3 retreat 2 pridemage, 2 selfless spirit
Jund / azban
In: ooze, 3 finks, 2 alliance
out: 1 BOP, 3 retreat, 1 spellskite, 1 pridemage
Tron
In: 1 ghost quarter, 2 negate, 1 ooze 1 unified will
out 1 wolf run, 4 path
Jeskai
In: 2 negate, 3 finks, 1 ooze 1 unified will
Out: 1 retreat, 1 spellskite, 1 BOP, 4 path
Abzan Company
In: 2 negate, 3 staticaster, 1 ooze
Out: 2 selfless spirit, 2 pridemage, 1 retreat, 1 voice
Grixes control
In: 2 negate, 3 finks, 1 ooze 1 unified will
Out: 3 retreat, 1 spellskite, 2 BOP, 1 path
Bant eldrazi
In: 2 alliance, 2 worship, 3 finks, 1 ooze
Out: 3 retreat, 2 pridemage, 3 queller
Burn
In: 1 ooze, 3 finks, 2 alliance, 2 negate, 2 worship
Out: 2 spirit, 3 retreat, 4 queller, 1 pridemage
Fish
In: 3 staticaster, 2 worship, 2 Alliance
Out: 1 spellskite, 2 ooze, 2 spirit, 2 courser
Titanshift
IN: 2 negate, 1 unified will, 1 ghost quarter, 2 worship
OUT:1 wolfrun, 1 ooze, 2 voice, 1 company, 1 BOP
So I have only played vs living end a few times during leagues and never in paper so far (with this deck). When I did play vs them I sided exactly the way you did. I have tried in the past with a few other sideboard options but given my current board (which i posted) this is how i would side.
Neckfire, thank you for your comments regarding the Fish vs Burn matchup.
I am surprised that you believe that Fish players add countermagic post-board. I tend to reduce my countermagic in this matchup (always on the draw, whilst usually on the play I will leave in Mana Leak if my maindeck runs that card), because their best aggressive creatures are too fast for counter magic. Spell Pierce is the most efficient counterspell which Fish uses, and it is helpless against all their creatures. I need to answer their creatures early game, and their spells mid/late game, which makes Spell Pierce very awkward because late game they might have mana available to pay for Spell Pierce. (However, I admit that Spell Pierce can be a lifesaver against Destructive Revelry sometimes, but still I am not convinced).
I am also surprised that you believe that Burn players do not add Destructive Revelry against Fish players in Game 2. In my opinion, the Naya Burn players like to have a jolly good revelry destroying my Aether Vials (which a Fish player would not even think of siding out in this matchup in order to blowout the Eidolons and to add extra tempo and combat tricks). Plus the Naya Burn player will likely expect to face Chalice post-board. A good Naya Burn player will not come to Game 2, see Chalice resolve and think "Oh you run that card? Oops I forgot about that, my bad!".
I am not saying that you are wrong, I am just expressing my personal perspective on the Fish vs Burn matchup.
Kindly noted, thanks.
May I ask if you have ever played the Retreat vs Living End matchup? Did you manage to defeat it?
For the Living End matchup, would this be a fair statement of your sideboarding plan?
+ 1 Scavenging Ooze
+ 2 Negate
+ 1 Unified Will
+ 2 Worship
- 3 Voice of Resurgence
- 2 Courser of Kruphix
- 1 Spellskite
Thank you, Michelle. To echo some of what of what has been said. Spellskite is one of your best tools. Sometimes it can be a race or you can force them to deal with your creatures. That way you are taking less heat and you can try to pull out a victory.
My fault with Warmth I really thought it was in 8th. Though as I said it is not ideal anyway. I also agree with copperline gorge. That list was not something I put together but something that 5-0ed a League. Nice input, I am trying to keep these general while providing advice etc. So I will always appreciate any comments. I
Generally what I've seen fish players do is a mixture of Chalice of the Void and counterspells. While Chalice is not ideal vs Destructive Revely the odds of them having it are very slim game 2. I have also seen Fish players bring in Spellskite to protect their lords as well as Chalice of the Void.
If your build runs spreading seas this can also be a huge thorn in the burn players side as you can take them off the crucial green or white mana they need to cast a lot of their spells on time.
Hello,
To comment on few things from the article.
First, While you did say you were digging deep for this Warmth unfortunately is not a Modern legal card as it was only printed in 6th edition and Tempest.
Second, Spellskite while it is a good card from the burn players perspective actually isn't that bad of a card to see. When i played naya burn I would ignore it most of the time as your guys combined with the pump from Atarka's Command could easily finish it off. The other thing to keep in mind is during side-boarded games the matchups where Spellskite would be coming from your opponents sideboard you would be trimming on some of your creature removal generally. Or more than likely you would be shaving one of the worst burn spells in the entire deck Rift Bolt. You would replace it with cards like Skull Crack. Spellskite does not do a good job of redirecting spells that can't hit creatures.
Other than that I agree with most of the things you have to say here. Personally when i played burn i was never a fan of Copperline Gorge, as it did not turn on my Wild Nacatle but I understand why players choose to run it to save life but I always found myself willing to pay 3 to deal that to my opponent.
Hello, Thanks for commenting
So unfortunately like many decks that I love to play this decks worst matchup is probably Tron. You need to have a fast combo to kill them or be able to tutor up Ghost Quarter's to stop them. Their ability to top deck a Oblivion Stone and just wipe the board is absolutely devastating.
Another I wouldn't call it a bad matchup but a tough matchup is actually burn. Game one they are really fast and their aggressive draws can really punish this deck if you are on a mana dork plan. Sideboard games go a lot better but its still not a walk in the park.
Outside of those two matchups the deck is a very good Jundish style deck with the ability to win out of no where. It just takes a lot of practice to figure out your lines of play with the deck and which route you should be pursuing to win.
Nice article, I understand why you like this deck.
Can I ask you: Based on your playtesting and leagues, what would you say are the worst matchups that you are hoping to dodge in a competitive Modern league? Does your deck have any horrendous matchups that are very tough even post-sideboard?
Thanks,
Michelle
Nice article Marcus, thanks.
You are right to believe that Spellskite is often better than Leyline of Sanctity to answer Burn. A while ago I asked two dedicated Naya Burn players which they feared most, Leyline or Spellskite, and they both answered "Spellskite!".
The card Deflecting Palm is also a fantastic answer which Naya Burn can use against Hexproof decks and Suicide Zoo. I once attacked a Naya Burn player with a 16/16 lifelinking, first striking, trampling Slippery Bogle. I said to myself: "Goodbye Naya Burn player, you die now, take that! It serves you right for playing Naya Burn. You had that coming to you!". I then saw him tap to add a red and white to his pool, and I discovered that it was me who took that 16 damage (and no lifegain due to the prevention)! Deflecting Palm = Face Palm!
Does anyone have any advice to offer a Mono Blue Merfolk player how to answer Naya Burn? I have tried adding 4 x Sun Droplets to the sideboard, which has helped sometimes but it is too weak, like fighting fire with tissues. Annul can counter the Eidolons, but it can backfire badly if you draw them too late (or draw too many copies early with no valid targets). Chalice of the Void (with 1 counter) seems strong, but it will usually just be targeted by Destructive Revelry (which is not viable on the draw, because the merfolk player will probably have taken 5 damage for that exchange due to the Eidolon damage + Destructive Revelry damage + Merfolk player will be under pressure on the draw). A Chalice for 2 counters requires 4 mana and is really lackluster, because I am probably just dead already if I use 4 mana to have no immediate effect on the board, and the Chalice with 2 counters will lock me out unless I have an active Aether Vial.
My current sideboard approach is to add a couple of Spellskites, and to increase the amount of Master of Waves and the Merfolk LORD count (adding copies of Phantasmal Image, to make my clock faster than my opponents). Your opponent will be forced to use his removal against your lords, which buys you time to blow him out with Master of Waves. The Master however is very vulnerable to Path to Exile, and I still sit on the edge of my seat despite these extra lords, trying to distract myself away from the thought that my life total is plummeting fast! On the play, I also add Chalices of the Void, but as I said above, this invites a Destructive Revelry. Thankfully the Burn players will side out their Eidolons in this matchup on the draw and possibly even on the play, because they are worried about their own life total and because Aether Vial can totally blowout the Eidolons.
Thanks for the feedback. Yea that's why I mentioned that Warmth is really digging deep. The other cards are much better.
Not sure Warmth is where you want to be going in defending against Modern burn. But, definitely a great primer for one like me who has been out of touch with the deck and meta for awhile.
Yeah, sorry, new isn't meant as an insult, so please don't take it as such. Like Paul said, some of the writers have been doing this a while now. "New" is only in relation to me: before my time, around my time, after my "regular" time. Everybody in the last 1-2 years is my new wave. Hopefully in the near future you'll have your own batch of writers that you call new!
Denser tables, like pricing ones, I drop in from excel, then adjust with both the rich text and html editors. After finding table properties that I liked, I saved the html and then paste it into the new tables when needed. If you would like someone to bounce some formatting off of, hit me up in the fb group.
Strategy can be of great help. Most especially on how the game works. - Marla Ahlgrimm