But the investment of Force of Will can be used on other days of the week for Legacy/Vintage AND is pretty risk-free since Force should keep its long term value. Admittedly, you have to have the starter cash. But honestly, if more people would play Force of Will, combo would go away pretty fast, which would then allow control decks to pick a dedicated fight with aggro.
I think you make a good case for Goblin Lackey being free in regular events.
Mono-red burn is more of a limiting factor than combo, however. Base-black and base-blue control (and even aggro) decks are near unplayable with so much burn in the meta (from regular to underdog), and these would otherwise be great options to keep combo in check.
It is totally irrelevant if combos didn't actually WIN the event as much as aggro (I bet most of the combos that did not WIN, went 3-1, though). The point is HOW they win.
Tribal rules force all players to use at least 20 creatures, so it's very 'clever', some would say cheesy or unfair, to use a combo who doesn't care about any creatures used.
Combos are about winning the game, and not playing it. I'm a big fan of Tribal, because I want to see that creatures fighting each other, I want a game. There are zillions of formats where you can rely on combos, why the hell should be Tribal be just another one of those or more like Legacy !?!
Then WotC's decision to remove the Tribal filter was right in the end, only an irrelevant subformat of Legacy.
And the suggestion to always play with a big splash of blue and 4 Force of Will in deck to counter the combos is just a bad joke( I hope). Beside the obvious restrictions on deckbuilding (many tribes are just not playable anymore), it means an investment of 140-220 bucks at least:
4x 25 $ for FoW = 100 $
4x dual land with blue= 40 - 120 $
And that for a format, that you usally could play only once a week on a Saturday afternoon.
I can agree on most of your points Kuma concerning the bans or un-bans, but I want to see action vs. the various combo decks. I want to see cornerstones banned.
I see absolutely no reason why a card like f.e. Helm of Obedience should be legal in Tribal! While the other part of the combo, Rest in Peace could
Why should we ban( or not un-ban) Goblin Lackey, while some combo decks didn't even lose a card in 'purification process' after winning the event.
Goblin Lackey may be overpowered( it usually is when you start the match with it, but already when the other player just starts the game instead of you, it is usally weak or mediocre and just a burden in Turn 5 or 6) ,however it is 100& tribal. It can be killed or blocked easily. The other player has 20 critters, too.
Goblins are ur-tribal.
But when the other just empty his whole library, with a cheap 3 mana enchantment, then automatically revives 4 blue spirits by their special ability for free, and then sacrifice 3 of them again for bringing the game-winning creature(via Flashback ability of a black card) from the graveyard(which contains the whole deck minus the hand) on the battlefield and win , then he may have had 20 creatures in deck, but I don't feel like he wanted actually to play a Tribal game.
If the combo decks will be still allowed to strike terror into the hearts of the true Tribal players, I definitely vote for unbanning Goblin Lackey.
After all, speed is what the combo players fear the most. Or a blue deck with 4 Counterspells, 4 FoW, etc.
What most people seems to ignore in their evaluations, is the fact, that Tribal has no sideboard!
That's the point which makes the combo decks so unfair in this environment. You brought your volleyball team but the home team plays basketball.
1) Considering Devoid, not a single colored card in the featured decks!
2) I hear you on Lackey-based Goblins, but anything that gives pause to Humans seemed decent in my mind. I've no strong feelings either way.
3) Did Thought Lash get perma-banned? It's on the banned page, not only in the "banned-until-fixed" outdated box, but also in the column of banned cards itself.
4) Darksteel = I'm such an idiot. The original deck name, Gort and Friends, was in reference to the original Metalworker art and a certain robot from The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951) - they look exactly alike, even down to their ray guns.
5) I think miha's comments about combo aren't so easily dismissed. While I haven't looked at recent results, and so I defer to your findings there, in some ways that's irrelevant. The fact that one could, and several players do, play one of several strong combos really constrains deckbuilding (but, to be fair, not as much as tribal burn decks constrain deckbuilding) and sometimes gives an unwanted feeling of helplessness (depends on the combo). I don't have a big deal with it - this is LEGACY (not modern) tribal wars, but it does constrain the tribes you can choose (for one oversimplified example, no Treefolk, unless you can somehow interact with the hand/stack). Again, no big deal: to the extent we fear it, we just have to play a lot of blue-based tribes, in general, with Force of Will; or hope we get there first with our weenie creations. Save Treefolk (etc.) for the cage matches. Personally, I find midrange on midrange kind of boring and random too, so I think combo is a good element to include, especially since the tools to defeat it are there (at the cost of deck constriction).
6) For better or for worse, I joined the 10-tribe winner threshold last week with my 10th different victorious tribe. From my count, I have miha with 15, romellos and robin88 with 11, me and AJ with 10. I love, love, love Tribal Wars because of the diversity it naturally encourages, and Tribal Apocalypse even better because you push that theme - thanks!
Moat unbanned? I might have to force myself to get up early just to play an event with moat in it. Saturday is way too busy for me as it is but hey...Moat unbanned!
I can have my moats back? Yay! I've missed them since before the Blippian era!
Agree on Lackey and Griselbrand, sound logic. For the equipment, I'm on the 'No' camp because powerful equipment is disproportionately strong in a creature-based format.
That's a good point. Kamigawa Block is a bit of a black spot for me as I wasn't playing or following the game at the time. That is a better frame of reference probably.
It is but offerings were tribal in specification and did not require an additional mana cost. Emerge is mana specific and does not require a specific tribal type. Thinking of it more as Flash might help a little.
And I'm surely a Buckeye fan, and celebrated their National Championships. But, my passion for sports has always rested more on the professional level over college. I admit, I may be in the in the minority there, considering that Pro stadiums are routinely not sold out, but every Saturday, 90-110 thousand people cram themselves into hundreds of various college stadiums to watch.
(It should be noted that I was raised Catholic in Northeast Ohio, so was brought up with mixed allegiances...Notre Dame and Ohio State. My support of the Irish has waned over the years.)
Miha has definitely been one of the most consistent of the top players and his decks have increasingly garnered my respect as a builder. (Even I don't play the tourney I still watch sometimes and usually read the lists.) The Elfposition list is a deck after my own heart even though despise using elves normally. Using them for this sort of thing is what they exist for imho.
But the investment of Force of Will can be used on other days of the week for Legacy/Vintage AND is pretty risk-free since Force should keep its long term value. Admittedly, you have to have the starter cash. But honestly, if more people would play Force of Will, combo would go away pretty fast, which would then allow control decks to pick a dedicated fight with aggro.
I think you make a good case for Goblin Lackey being free in regular events.
Mono-red burn is more of a limiting factor than combo, however. Base-black and base-blue control (and even aggro) decks are near unplayable with so much burn in the meta (from regular to underdog), and these would otherwise be great options to keep combo in check.
It is totally irrelevant if combos didn't actually WIN the event as much as aggro (I bet most of the combos that did not WIN, went 3-1, though). The point is HOW they win.
Tribal rules force all players to use at least 20 creatures, so it's very 'clever', some would say cheesy or unfair, to use a combo who doesn't care about any creatures used.
Combos are about winning the game, and not playing it. I'm a big fan of Tribal, because I want to see that creatures fighting each other, I want a game. There are zillions of formats where you can rely on combos, why the hell should be Tribal be just another one of those or more like Legacy !?!
Then WotC's decision to remove the Tribal filter was right in the end, only an irrelevant subformat of Legacy.
And the suggestion to always play with a big splash of blue and 4 Force of Will in deck to counter the combos is just a bad joke( I hope). Beside the obvious restrictions on deckbuilding (many tribes are just not playable anymore), it means an investment of 140-220 bucks at least:
4x 25 $ for FoW = 100 $
4x dual land with blue= 40 - 120 $
And that for a format, that you usally could play only once a week on a Saturday afternoon.
I can agree on most of your points Kuma concerning the bans or un-bans, but I want to see action vs. the various combo decks. I want to see cornerstones banned.
I see absolutely no reason why a card like f.e. Helm of Obedience should be legal in Tribal! While the other part of the combo, Rest in Peace could
Why should we ban( or not un-ban) Goblin Lackey, while some combo decks didn't even lose a card in 'purification process' after winning the event.
Goblin Lackey may be overpowered( it usually is when you start the match with it, but already when the other player just starts the game instead of you, it is usally weak or mediocre and just a burden in Turn 5 or 6) ,however it is 100& tribal. It can be killed or blocked easily. The other player has 20 critters, too.
Goblins are ur-tribal.
But when the other just empty his whole library, with a cheap 3 mana enchantment, then automatically revives 4 blue spirits by their special ability for free, and then sacrifice 3 of them again for bringing the game-winning creature(via Flashback ability of a black card) from the graveyard(which contains the whole deck minus the hand) on the battlefield and win , then he may have had 20 creatures in deck, but I don't feel like he wanted actually to play a Tribal game.
If the combo decks will be still allowed to strike terror into the hearts of the true Tribal players, I definitely vote for unbanning Goblin Lackey.
After all, speed is what the combo players fear the most. Or a blue deck with 4 Counterspells, 4 FoW, etc.
What most people seems to ignore in their evaluations, is the fact, that Tribal has no sideboard!
That's the point which makes the combo decks so unfair in this environment. You brought your volleyball team but the home team plays basketball.
1) Considering Devoid, not a single colored card in the featured decks!
2) I hear you on Lackey-based Goblins, but anything that gives pause to Humans seemed decent in my mind. I've no strong feelings either way.
3) Did Thought Lash get perma-banned? It's on the banned page, not only in the "banned-until-fixed" outdated box, but also in the column of banned cards itself.
4) Darksteel = I'm such an idiot. The original deck name, Gort and Friends, was in reference to the original Metalworker art and a certain robot from The Day the Earth Stood Still (1951) - they look exactly alike, even down to their ray guns.
5) I think miha's comments about combo aren't so easily dismissed. While I haven't looked at recent results, and so I defer to your findings there, in some ways that's irrelevant. The fact that one could, and several players do, play one of several strong combos really constrains deckbuilding (but, to be fair, not as much as tribal burn decks constrain deckbuilding) and sometimes gives an unwanted feeling of helplessness (depends on the combo). I don't have a big deal with it - this is LEGACY (not modern) tribal wars, but it does constrain the tribes you can choose (for one oversimplified example, no Treefolk, unless you can somehow interact with the hand/stack). Again, no big deal: to the extent we fear it, we just have to play a lot of blue-based tribes, in general, with Force of Will; or hope we get there first with our weenie creations. Save Treefolk (etc.) for the cage matches. Personally, I find midrange on midrange kind of boring and random too, so I think combo is a good element to include, especially since the tools to defeat it are there (at the cost of deck constriction).
6) For better or for worse, I joined the 10-tribe winner threshold last week with my 10th different victorious tribe. From my count, I have miha with 15, romellos and robin88 with 11, me and AJ with 10. I love, love, love Tribal Wars because of the diversity it naturally encourages, and Tribal Apocalypse even better because you push that theme - thanks!
Moat unbanned? I might have to force myself to get up early just to play an event with moat in it. Saturday is way too busy for me as it is but hey...Moat unbanned!
I can have my moats back? Yay! I've missed them since before the Blippian era!
Agree on Lackey and Griselbrand, sound logic. For the equipment, I'm on the 'No' camp because powerful equipment is disproportionately strong in a creature-based format.
Games need to do with guts. Being scared will not lead you to winning. - Mark Zokle
There are different phases of life. It depends on your own way of dealing with it. - Mark Zokle
That's a good point. Kamigawa Block is a bit of a black spot for me as I wasn't playing or following the game at the time. That is a better frame of reference probably.
ah misremembering ftl :) Yeah the instant speed part I'd forgotten about too.
Offering did require you to pay a cost in addition to the sacrifice, and that cost was reduced by the cost of the sacrificed creature.
It's actually very close, apart from the tribal component and the fact that you could cast any card with offering at instant speed with the sacrifice.
It is but offerings were tribal in specification and did not require an additional mana cost. Emerge is mana specific and does not require a specific tribal type. Thinking of it more as Flash might help a little.
Isn't emerge just modified offering from kamigawa?
Blue is the color of my true spike's hair.
Another great one - keep it up!
Yeah AJ goes in streaks where he 4-0s, 3-0s and 3-1s. Top 8 for a reason, yo!
Indeedy. 4-0, qualified for the week's playoff.
AJ:You went undefeated in Tribal? Congratulations! :P
That depends on what you are facing, I imagine. Progenitus is a slightly slower clock if your op has life gained past 20.
With Oath of Nissa, Blood Moon main deck makes sense.
Is Emrakul, the Aeons Torn a better choice of creature than Progenitus? What with Eldrazi Obligator and the new emerge mechanic.
I wish there were like buttons for comments here
And I'm surely a Buckeye fan, and celebrated their National Championships. But, my passion for sports has always rested more on the professional level over college. I admit, I may be in the in the minority there, considering that Pro stadiums are routinely not sold out, but every Saturday, 90-110 thousand people cram themselves into hundreds of various college stadiums to watch.
(It should be noted that I was raised Catholic in Northeast Ohio, so was brought up with mixed allegiances...Notre Dame and Ohio State. My support of the Irish has waned over the years.)
Come on now Carl, if you wanted to watch championship sports all you had to do was look at Columbus.
At least The Ohio State knows how to win :D
Super useful article. Thanks for this!
Miha has definitely been one of the most consistent of the top players and his decks have increasingly garnered my respect as a builder. (Even I don't play the tourney I still watch sometimes and usually read the lists.) The Elfposition list is a deck after my own heart even though despise using elves normally. Using them for this sort of thing is what they exist for imho.
I have no idea why my single click submit made two copies of my post but...ok?