The Back to Basics plan backfired against me. I was ready to hammer CLOUDPOST decks and COLOR GREEDY decks like Kasparadi's (which runs not even 1 basic land). However the plan failed when I faced Mono White, then Mono Black, then Mono Red, then a Blood Moon deck which was also focused on punishing the non-basics.
I am not giving up on the Back to Basics plan, not until I wipe out a 12-post deck. This will be a lesson to the Cloudpost players :)
Way back in the day, when I was in the military and first learning the game in '96, there was a Captain who played with us at lunch. He always ran a White Weenie deck with 4X Wrath of God and 4X Armageddon.
One of my first decks that I built...UR beats...with no counters (at a time when counters were awesome) and no Burn...because I just wanted to beat with creatures.
Some decks do risky things like running graveyard hate that may also hit themselves with the idea that they can remove the hate when they need it or just avoid using it altogether when it isn't needed in order to get the jump a prevalent strategy.
Have you ever seen anyone make a deck which is not even internally synergistic? (For example, Rest in Peace in a deck with Life from the Loam). Maybe nothing as extreme as that, but something amusing? Anyone? :)
I don't understand how AJ won the Underdog prize; he went 2-2 with a 2 category tribe but Michelle_Wong went 3-1 with Sphinxes, which is also a 2 category tribe. Am I missing something or was there a mistake?
I joined the 10-tribe winner threshold last week with my 10th different victorious tribe. From my count, I have miha with 15, romellos and robin88 with 11, me and AJ with 10
That's an interesting statistics I never thought of compiling. I might do it!
That you have revealed yourself as normally a Bogles player does not shock me. (Note...I'm in no way stating that in a disparaging way.) Having creatures that are able to be targeted is probably not something you are used to just accepting as part of the typical game. :)
Answers below:
1.) There is a bit of a gap between MTGO and Paper as far as deck popularity. In paper, I see significantly higher numbers of people playing the Chord/Company/Melira/etc. combo decks over Suicide Zoo and Infect. Additionally, the combo deck is very time consuming and more difficult to play on MTGO. Another factor in the rise of Infect and Suicide Zoo is that they are fast, which allows for those grinders to double-triple queue much more reasonably.
That being said, given the online format, if I was playing a Modern MOCS or PPTQ/PTQ, I would most assuredly swap the Trinisphere and Torpor Orbs in the list.
2.) Funny enough, the original deck I first played, circa GP: Lincoln (i.e. the first ever Modern GP), ran a 7-Moon build: http://themeadery.org/decks/deck/3832/
While I went 6-3 at that event, missing Day 2, I did not like how the deck played. It was at that time that I swapped in Bloodbraid Elf, and made a few other changes. Just a few months later, at GP: Columbus, I played this: http://themeadery.org/decks/deck/3834/ (also finishing a disappointed 6-3).
One of the reasons for the change was that, so often, Magus was just horrible. If I already had Blood Moon out, which I would always play first anyway, then it's just a more expensive Grizzly Bear. It also doesn't trade profitably with anything, or attack well. While I admit the effect it awesome, it's even more susceptible to removal than Ram-Gang, as it's also week to Pyroclasm effects, the rising in popularity Sudden Shock, while maintaining the weakness to Bolt/Path. Right now, the Magus is not under consideration.
One interesting consideration is Hermit of the Natterknolls. If nothing else, it allows me to draw a card when the opponent does something on my turn. I'm currently not sold on that, though.
3.) I will very rarely keep an opener with Bonfire in it. Sure, I've kept it against Infect and Affinity, as even a hard cast Bonfire on T2/3 can net an easy 2-3 for 1. Even without manipulating the top of my deck, I still miracle quite often. Even a T2 Miracle, where I had a T1 accelerator, can kill a bird/elf/etc. on the other side...or going second, possibly more. I'm a huge believer in X-spells, and usually try to pack one into almost every deck I play. Where Bonfire is superior is that it hits both fliers and non-fliers, not just one of the other like Hurricane or Earthquake, and it doesn't touch my creatures. It's nice having a random "I win" card, even against decks that don't go wide. And although the "go wide" answer is nice, I'm good with simply taking out a couple creatures as well.
Besides being useful against creature based decks, which there are tons of in Modern, it's also good against things like 8-Rack or Lantern Control...decks that hide behind Ensnaring Bridge, as I have a non-attacking avenue to victory.
4.) I this this is a question regarding the BG Infect sideboard from the list I posted under Green Moon. There were very few matches where I even bring Feed the Clan in. Between pump/Rancor/etc, I almost always get the 10 life, which is usually more than enough against the burn decks allow me to just simply win via infect. Generally speaking, I'm not really looking at blocking with the deck, so the added utility of Finks is inconsequential.
5.) Ive never been on the Huntmaster bandwagon. I admit that it can be good, but between my own Orbs shutting down the initial enters the battlefield ability, and that both the Huntmaster and the Wolf it brings along only having a 2 backside, it's never been a consideration in the 4-drop slot.
6.) Again, I assume this is concerning the Infect deck I posted. Right now, I think 2 Spellskite is about right. Between hand disruption and removal an trying to keep with the kill with poison plan, there are only so many slots to swap in and out in each of the matchups and keep the plan intact. I've not had issues with any of those decks in testing.
Hope that helps. And again, any questions, feel free to hit me up.
1. Does this die to a bolt without help?
2. If so, is this worth a bolt?
When building. But if the answer to 2 is not "no way!" I'd say it isn't really a useful answer to say "then you can't build with it." I'd say it is a more useful answer to say "Then maybe 4x isn't the right number" and or "does this belong in the sideboard?"
In this deck you are worried, I take it, about the tempo loss involved in losing a creature to a 1 cost removal spell. (Path is a valid problem too even if it helps fix your mana slightly.) I am not saying you are wrong to be worried about that, but I don't think it should preclude ram-gang or hellrider for that matter. Both creatures are end game creatures against the right decks and still pretty buff against those that are more full of removal/answers. Heck attacking with hellrider plus a few creatures is a serious threat even they wont pierce the defenses, just because of the triggers.
Ram-Gang's wither ability should not be ignored either. block it once with a wall and you might not be blocking it again with that wall.
Maybe one of the reasons I find Boggart Ram Gangs and Hellriders difficult to support enthusiastically is that I usually play Green/White Bogles in Modern. I am not used to opponents targeting my creatures, and it is a big step for me to offer such juicy targets to my opponent! :)
I think though that your Green Moon deck would be a fun deck to play, and the drawbacks would be equally rewarded by all the "Gotcha!" moments which this deck is able to achieve (either via the Blood Moon or the constant supply of hasty threats). For example, it would be fun to play Blood Moon and watch your opponent try to squirm out from that!
If I play this deck, I would experiment with the Torpor Orbs in the main deck vs in the sideboard. I might keep a running graph, noting at the end of each match whether Torpor Orbs were useful main deck, or were a dead card. Because at the moment I am not convinced that the Orbs belong in the main deck, and I need more experience to see if they are a good choice or not.
I have 6 last questions for you:
1. Given the surge in popularity of Suicide Zoo (and Infect) decks in the Online Meta in the Competitive Modern League, are you also starting to ponder moving the Orbs into your board? I know we have discussed this point above, however at that point in time I did not have access to the statistic which suggests that Suicide Zoo has become rampant in the Magic Online League meta.
2. Would you contemplate replacing the Boggart-Ram Gangs with Magus of the Moon? (bringing the moon count up to 7 or 8, to help ensure that the Moon actually resolves or sticks on the board).
3. I was surprised when you mentioned that you rarely remove the Bonfire of the Damned after Game 1. Given that you have no way to manipulate the top card of your library to trigger the Miracle mechanic, it seems to me that Bonfire is a very clunky card which is effective mainly against opponents who go wide with small creatures. For example, if you have access to 4 mana, this will mean 1 damage to the opponent and 1 damage to each creature they have. Can you help me understand why you believe that Bonfire of the Damned is so important for your deck?
4. Are you convinced that 2 x Feed the Clan is better than 2 x Kitchen Finks in the sideboard?
5. Have you ever tried the Huntmaster of the Falls in your Green Moon deck? Is this something you are currently contemplating, or you have firmly made up your mind about the Huntmaster?
6. Are you thinking about adding a third copy of Spellskite to your sideboard to help cope against INFECT and BOGLES and BURN and SCAPESHIFT? (the first two of which are nightmare matchups for Green Moon).
@Paul Leicht: I take your point about the old "It dies to removal!" argument, but in this case I am concerned about the most prevalent removal in the format, Lightning Bolt. I am not criticizing any creature just because it dies to removal. Being able to dodge the most rampant removal card in a format is a huge thing, and this is a big strength of cards like Goyf and Tasigur, or other value cards like Finks or Huntmaster. In addition, in the case of Green Moon, we are not talking about a situation of, say, a Bolt on a Dark Confidant, where the exchange is almost even. The concern in Green Moon is that the 3 drops and 4 drops are so vulnerable to the most rampant and cheap form of removal in the format. So I maintain my points about "It dies to removal!" :)
Burn can be pretty awful for a Suicide Zoo player. Though there are times where you can just race it. I played Suicide Zoo for a bit and that and infect were 2 things that made me nervous.
This answer reminds of the old "This creature sucks!" "Why?? It does x, y and z" "Because it dies to Doom Blade..." conversations from back the day. (Replace DB with Terror for even more ancient magic speak.)
Oh wow--I didn't realize I completely forgot the pictures for this article. Sometimes I put them in during the initial pass, but sometimes I leave them until the editing pass right before submission, and this was the latter. I guess if I'm going to be a little sloppy, I'd rather it be for a core set that few people are going to play.
I also didn't tell the main story I wanted to talk about--this is actually the first set when I started actively playing Magic! I had been winding down with the Pokemon TCG for a while, and figured M10 was a good jumping-on point for actually acquiring cards. I played in a prerelease, registered a DCI number, and promptly opening a Jace Beleren and a foil Birds of Paradise, the latter of which paid for my entry. As we'll see with my Eldritch Moon article, my lucky opens appear to be coming full circle :)
1.) I would be lying if I said that the sequence you described never happens. I've had it happen, though not as frequently as you envision. Normally, when this happens, it is because I kept what I considered a keepable hand, given the situation...usually a mulligan to 5. Another aspect of preventing it from happening is just practicing. I've played this deck so much, and play Modern so much, that I'm familiar with many of the lines of play and how my deck interacts with them. While there are times you can't avoid playing a Ram-Gang into an open red source, there are other options, such as playing other three drops, or taking the turn to build to a 4 by playing one of your tapped creature lands, or even playing into it and letting them Snap-Bolt your Ram-Gang to clear the way for Hellrider the following turn.
I should probably state now that I do mulligan aggressively. I would never keep an opening 7 that only had Ram-Gang as my threats, and no Burning-Tree, Blood Moon and/or 4-drop. The net gain with the guys with haste is that it forces the answer right now, which honesty, they just don't always have...in fact, they have the immediate answer significantly less than you would think, and to give the deck a little unexpected reach by being able to get in for extra, unaccounted for, damage.
All that aside, any X/3 creature is handled by Bolt. But I've never been one disregard a creature just because of possible removal. And the same thing can happen with Path to Exile as well. The bane of those of us who love creature based decks.
I would suggest, though, that if you are having second thoughts about Ram-Gang, try running with Hell's Thunder in that slot. You do lose the blocking ability with it as well as wither, which can keep Finks from coming back, but it is out of Bolt range, and has evasion.
(FYI...Interesting that you mention hexproof creatures in your question. I have toyed with the all Shroud/Hexproof version, but never found anything that I liked with that configuration)
Blood Moon cuts them off of 12 main deck spells...a full 20% of the deck, and pretty much all my creatures are better than theirs. Not to mention, Blood Moon guts their SB as well. Against any burn deck, I cut Orbs for my beloved Trinisphere, which tips the scale significantly in my favor. It's not difficult for us to get to 6+ lands, but the Burn deck will essentially be on no more than a single spell between their untaps. It's a huge advantage. There is usually plenty of time to deploy Blood Moon, as these 3-color Burn decks are significantly slower than the circa-2013/2014 Mono-Red or Bump-Red decks, as they don't have as many 3-damage-1-mana burn spells. Whereas those burn decks were essentially a 7 card combo deck, the Naya decks tend to play longer and allow you more time to answer them.
I concede that sometimes, they can just finish you off with all red spells, and that can happen. Just as sometimes, the Bushwacker Zoo deck just goes nuts on T2-3, and you are dead. From experience, those games are more the exception than the rule.
As always, If you have any other questions, or want to chat more, feel free to ask here, or hit my up on FB if that works easier for you.
Hi, all the data comes from the competitive leagues for those formats that have them; Pauper and Vintage are the exceptions (there is only one league for Pauper, and I use the results from Dailies for Vintage).
Is this data from the Competitive or Friendly Leagues, or both?
Regarding Modern, I am surprised to see how popular Suicide Zoo is becoming nowadays on Magic Online. You need to be totally on top of this matchup if you compete in a Modern League.
Does anyone know what are the complete NIGHTMARE matchups from the perspective of the Suicide Zoo player?
Thanks Carl for those answers about Dredge. I am happy that Torpor Orb shuts down the Prized Amalgams.
I like your Green Moon deck a lot. Especially because it has Blood Moons and Thrun the Last Troll, two of my favorite cards in MTG's history and which I already own. The only thing holding me back right now are the Boggart Ram Gangs. I am terribly worried about the following sequence of events:
Turn 2:
I cast Boggart-Ram Gang.
Then opponent casts Lightning Bolt at the Declare Blockers step, targeting Boggart Ram Gang (I have nothing to say to that, so I shamelessly scoop up my 3-drop creature and place it to the graveyard).
Turn 3:
I cast second copy of Boggart-Ram Gang.
My opponent casts Snapcaster Mage, now with an arrogant smile on his face, as if he is saying to me: "How cute! Another Ram Gang! Michelle, you do realise that this is Modern format right, not draft at your local game store!") targeting the Lightning Bolt and then bolting the Boggart-Ram Gang. (Again, I have nothing to say about that, so I scoop up, red-faced, my 3-drop and place it in the graveyard. I go and make a cup of coffee because I need something to distract myself away from the fact that I am becoming ultra experienced in moving my 3 mana drops into the graveyard!).
Then, in the next round I might face Naya Burn, and a similarly horrible train wreck could occur if my opponent uses their LIGHTNING BOLT on my first Ram-Gang, and then SEARING BLAZE on my second Boggart-Ram Gang. I have paid many manas in the exchange (6 vs 3), and then suffered 3 damage as an extra bonus for all my manas that I have spent! At which point I go and make some more coffee to take my mind off the fact that I have become the master of offering 2-for-1's to my opponent.
This sequence of events can happen to you, it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone who plays Green Moon!
So I have 2 final questions for you:
1. Do these sequences happen quite a lot to you? I dislike allowing my opponent being to find easy outs to my threats. If I want to threaten an opponent, I prefer to cause them headaches with cards like Kitchen Finks/Huntmasters, or Slippery Bogles/Gladecover Scouts etc! I do love Thrun though, and I would not settle for 1 copy only. I love your idea to add another one.
2. Is the Naya Burn matchup an OK matchup for you? Does Blood Moon stay in, or come out, post-board (if you are on the Draw)? I can see how it would be nice shutting down the Nacatyls, Boros Charms and Atarka's Commands, but do you have time to deploy a Blood Moon if you are on the draw against them? Most of their cards are pure red, so they might be able to finish you off using red mana only.
The other exception I would add to Modern Spells + Legacy (on-tribe?) creatures is the ten Alpha dual lands. No need to make people buy a whole new format's worth of lands.
1.) I've played Living End multiple times, and it's never been a matchup that has concerned me. Blood Moon is pretty good against them, and, as you noted, post board Trinisphere is pretty powerful as well.
2.) I've not played a ton against dredge. A fairly stock list is the one listed here: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-... (played by LUKEJF01). The deck is still weak to Blood Moon, running only one basic land of consequence. It should be noted that Torpor Orb shuts off free Prized Amalgam, since Narcomeba/Bloodghast entering from the graveyards won't trigger the ability. While it is certainly possible that they can come out quicker/faster than I would, especially on the play, it's a matchup that I don't think is horrible, and also fringe enough that I could reasonably hope to dodge it at most large events.
Hope that helps. Let me know if you have any other questions.
Thanks Kumagoro for this article.
The Back to Basics plan backfired against me. I was ready to hammer CLOUDPOST decks and COLOR GREEDY decks like Kasparadi's (which runs not even 1 basic land). However the plan failed when I faced Mono White, then Mono Black, then Mono Red, then a Blood Moon deck which was also focused on punishing the non-basics.
I am not giving up on the Back to Basics plan, not until I wipe out a 12-post deck. This will be a lesson to the Cloudpost players :)
Way back in the day, when I was in the military and first learning the game in '96, there was a Captain who played with us at lunch. He always ran a White Weenie deck with 4X Wrath of God and 4X Armageddon.
One of my first decks that I built...UR beats...with no counters (at a time when counters were awesome) and no Burn...because I just wanted to beat with creatures.
Some decks do risky things like running graveyard hate that may also hit themselves with the idea that they can remove the hate when they need it or just avoid using it altogether when it isn't needed in order to get the jump a prevalent strategy.
LOL Carl :)
Have you ever seen anyone make a deck which is not even internally synergistic? (For example, Rest in Peace in a deck with Life from the Loam). Maybe nothing as extreme as that, but something amusing? Anyone? :)
I don't understand how AJ won the Underdog prize; he went 2-2 with a 2 category tribe but Michelle_Wong went 3-1 with Sphinxes, which is also a 2 category tribe. Am I missing something or was there a mistake?
Might as well expand it to all lands that produce at least but no more than one mana.
I joined the 10-tribe winner threshold last week with my 10th different victorious tribe. From my count, I have miha with 15, romellos and robin88 with 11, me and AJ with 10
That's an interesting statistics I never thought of compiling. I might do it!
Thanks Carl for your answers. You have answered all my questions, thanks for the help.
(I confused the two sideboards for a couple of questions, apologies for the confusion).
Hi, Michelle,
That you have revealed yourself as normally a Bogles player does not shock me. (Note...I'm in no way stating that in a disparaging way.) Having creatures that are able to be targeted is probably not something you are used to just accepting as part of the typical game. :)
Answers below:
1.) There is a bit of a gap between MTGO and Paper as far as deck popularity. In paper, I see significantly higher numbers of people playing the Chord/Company/Melira/etc. combo decks over Suicide Zoo and Infect. Additionally, the combo deck is very time consuming and more difficult to play on MTGO. Another factor in the rise of Infect and Suicide Zoo is that they are fast, which allows for those grinders to double-triple queue much more reasonably.
That being said, given the online format, if I was playing a Modern MOCS or PPTQ/PTQ, I would most assuredly swap the Trinisphere and Torpor Orbs in the list.
2.) Funny enough, the original deck I first played, circa GP: Lincoln (i.e. the first ever Modern GP), ran a 7-Moon build: http://themeadery.org/decks/deck/3832/
While I went 6-3 at that event, missing Day 2, I did not like how the deck played. It was at that time that I swapped in Bloodbraid Elf, and made a few other changes. Just a few months later, at GP: Columbus, I played this: http://themeadery.org/decks/deck/3834/ (also finishing a disappointed 6-3).
One of the reasons for the change was that, so often, Magus was just horrible. If I already had Blood Moon out, which I would always play first anyway, then it's just a more expensive Grizzly Bear. It also doesn't trade profitably with anything, or attack well. While I admit the effect it awesome, it's even more susceptible to removal than Ram-Gang, as it's also week to Pyroclasm effects, the rising in popularity Sudden Shock, while maintaining the weakness to Bolt/Path. Right now, the Magus is not under consideration.
One interesting consideration is Hermit of the Natterknolls. If nothing else, it allows me to draw a card when the opponent does something on my turn. I'm currently not sold on that, though.
3.) I will very rarely keep an opener with Bonfire in it. Sure, I've kept it against Infect and Affinity, as even a hard cast Bonfire on T2/3 can net an easy 2-3 for 1. Even without manipulating the top of my deck, I still miracle quite often. Even a T2 Miracle, where I had a T1 accelerator, can kill a bird/elf/etc. on the other side...or going second, possibly more. I'm a huge believer in X-spells, and usually try to pack one into almost every deck I play. Where Bonfire is superior is that it hits both fliers and non-fliers, not just one of the other like Hurricane or Earthquake, and it doesn't touch my creatures. It's nice having a random "I win" card, even against decks that don't go wide. And although the "go wide" answer is nice, I'm good with simply taking out a couple creatures as well.
Besides being useful against creature based decks, which there are tons of in Modern, it's also good against things like 8-Rack or Lantern Control...decks that hide behind Ensnaring Bridge, as I have a non-attacking avenue to victory.
4.) I this this is a question regarding the BG Infect sideboard from the list I posted under Green Moon. There were very few matches where I even bring Feed the Clan in. Between pump/Rancor/etc, I almost always get the 10 life, which is usually more than enough against the burn decks allow me to just simply win via infect. Generally speaking, I'm not really looking at blocking with the deck, so the added utility of Finks is inconsequential.
5.) Ive never been on the Huntmaster bandwagon. I admit that it can be good, but between my own Orbs shutting down the initial enters the battlefield ability, and that both the Huntmaster and the Wolf it brings along only having a 2 backside, it's never been a consideration in the 4-drop slot.
6.) Again, I assume this is concerning the Infect deck I posted. Right now, I think 2 Spellskite is about right. Between hand disruption and removal an trying to keep with the kill with poison plan, there are only so many slots to swap in and out in each of the matchups and keep the plan intact. I've not had issues with any of those decks in testing.
Hope that helps. And again, any questions, feel free to hit me up.
Thanks,
Carl
Thanks Eugenio and Marcus for those insights about the Suicide Zoo matchup, interesting to know.
It certainly helps to ask the questions:
1. Does this die to a bolt without help?
2. If so, is this worth a bolt?
When building. But if the answer to 2 is not "no way!" I'd say it isn't really a useful answer to say "then you can't build with it." I'd say it is a more useful answer to say "Then maybe 4x isn't the right number" and or "does this belong in the sideboard?"
In this deck you are worried, I take it, about the tempo loss involved in losing a creature to a 1 cost removal spell. (Path is a valid problem too even if it helps fix your mana slightly.) I am not saying you are wrong to be worried about that, but I don't think it should preclude ram-gang or hellrider for that matter. Both creatures are end game creatures against the right decks and still pretty buff against those that are more full of removal/answers. Heck attacking with hellrider plus a few creatures is a serious threat even they wont pierce the defenses, just because of the triggers.
Ram-Gang's wither ability should not be ignored either. block it once with a wall and you might not be blocking it again with that wall.
Thanks Carl for your answers, it makes sense.
Maybe one of the reasons I find Boggart Ram Gangs and Hellriders difficult to support enthusiastically is that I usually play Green/White Bogles in Modern. I am not used to opponents targeting my creatures, and it is a big step for me to offer such juicy targets to my opponent! :)
I think though that your Green Moon deck would be a fun deck to play, and the drawbacks would be equally rewarded by all the "Gotcha!" moments which this deck is able to achieve (either via the Blood Moon or the constant supply of hasty threats). For example, it would be fun to play Blood Moon and watch your opponent try to squirm out from that!
If I play this deck, I would experiment with the Torpor Orbs in the main deck vs in the sideboard. I might keep a running graph, noting at the end of each match whether Torpor Orbs were useful main deck, or were a dead card. Because at the moment I am not convinced that the Orbs belong in the main deck, and I need more experience to see if they are a good choice or not.
I have 6 last questions for you:
1. Given the surge in popularity of Suicide Zoo (and Infect) decks in the Online Meta in the Competitive Modern League, are you also starting to ponder moving the Orbs into your board? I know we have discussed this point above, however at that point in time I did not have access to the statistic which suggests that Suicide Zoo has become rampant in the Magic Online League meta.
2. Would you contemplate replacing the Boggart-Ram Gangs with Magus of the Moon? (bringing the moon count up to 7 or 8, to help ensure that the Moon actually resolves or sticks on the board).
3. I was surprised when you mentioned that you rarely remove the Bonfire of the Damned after Game 1. Given that you have no way to manipulate the top card of your library to trigger the Miracle mechanic, it seems to me that Bonfire is a very clunky card which is effective mainly against opponents who go wide with small creatures. For example, if you have access to 4 mana, this will mean 1 damage to the opponent and 1 damage to each creature they have. Can you help me understand why you believe that Bonfire of the Damned is so important for your deck?
4. Are you convinced that 2 x Feed the Clan is better than 2 x Kitchen Finks in the sideboard?
5. Have you ever tried the Huntmaster of the Falls in your Green Moon deck? Is this something you are currently contemplating, or you have firmly made up your mind about the Huntmaster?
6. Are you thinking about adding a third copy of Spellskite to your sideboard to help cope against INFECT and BOGLES and BURN and SCAPESHIFT? (the first two of which are nightmare matchups for Green Moon).
@Paul Leicht: I take your point about the old "It dies to removal!" argument, but in this case I am concerned about the most prevalent removal in the format, Lightning Bolt. I am not criticizing any creature just because it dies to removal. Being able to dodge the most rampant removal card in a format is a huge thing, and this is a big strength of cards like Goyf and Tasigur, or other value cards like Finks or Huntmaster. In addition, in the case of Green Moon, we are not talking about a situation of, say, a Bolt on a Dark Confidant, where the exchange is almost even. The concern in Green Moon is that the 3 drops and 4 drops are so vulnerable to the most rampant and cheap form of removal in the format. So I maintain my points about "It dies to removal!" :)
Burn can be pretty awful for a Suicide Zoo player. Though there are times where you can just race it. I played Suicide Zoo for a bit and that and infect were 2 things that made me nervous.
This answer reminds of the old "This creature sucks!" "Why?? It does x, y and z" "Because it dies to Doom Blade..." conversations from back the day. (Replace DB with Terror for even more ancient magic speak.)
Oh wow--I didn't realize I completely forgot the pictures for this article. Sometimes I put them in during the initial pass, but sometimes I leave them until the editing pass right before submission, and this was the latter. I guess if I'm going to be a little sloppy, I'd rather it be for a core set that few people are going to play.
I also didn't tell the main story I wanted to talk about--this is actually the first set when I started actively playing Magic! I had been winding down with the Pokemon TCG for a while, and figured M10 was a good jumping-on point for actually acquiring cards. I played in a prerelease, registered a DCI number, and promptly opening a Jace Beleren and a foil Birds of Paradise, the latter of which paid for my entry. As we'll see with my Eldritch Moon article, my lucky opens appear to be coming full circle :)
Hi, Michelle,
1.) I would be lying if I said that the sequence you described never happens. I've had it happen, though not as frequently as you envision. Normally, when this happens, it is because I kept what I considered a keepable hand, given the situation...usually a mulligan to 5. Another aspect of preventing it from happening is just practicing. I've played this deck so much, and play Modern so much, that I'm familiar with many of the lines of play and how my deck interacts with them. While there are times you can't avoid playing a Ram-Gang into an open red source, there are other options, such as playing other three drops, or taking the turn to build to a 4 by playing one of your tapped creature lands, or even playing into it and letting them Snap-Bolt your Ram-Gang to clear the way for Hellrider the following turn.
I should probably state now that I do mulligan aggressively. I would never keep an opening 7 that only had Ram-Gang as my threats, and no Burning-Tree, Blood Moon and/or 4-drop. The net gain with the guys with haste is that it forces the answer right now, which honesty, they just don't always have...in fact, they have the immediate answer significantly less than you would think, and to give the deck a little unexpected reach by being able to get in for extra, unaccounted for, damage.
All that aside, any X/3 creature is handled by Bolt. But I've never been one disregard a creature just because of possible removal. And the same thing can happen with Path to Exile as well. The bane of those of us who love creature based decks.
I would suggest, though, that if you are having second thoughts about Ram-Gang, try running with Hell's Thunder in that slot. You do lose the blocking ability with it as well as wither, which can keep Finks from coming back, but it is out of Bolt range, and has evasion.
(FYI...Interesting that you mention hexproof creatures in your question. I have toyed with the all Shroud/Hexproof version, but never found anything that I liked with that configuration)
2.) I would much rather play Naya Burn than any other version. Take this list, for instance: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=104451
Blood Moon cuts them off of 12 main deck spells...a full 20% of the deck, and pretty much all my creatures are better than theirs. Not to mention, Blood Moon guts their SB as well. Against any burn deck, I cut Orbs for my beloved Trinisphere, which tips the scale significantly in my favor. It's not difficult for us to get to 6+ lands, but the Burn deck will essentially be on no more than a single spell between their untaps. It's a huge advantage. There is usually plenty of time to deploy Blood Moon, as these 3-color Burn decks are significantly slower than the circa-2013/2014 Mono-Red or Bump-Red decks, as they don't have as many 3-damage-1-mana burn spells. Whereas those burn decks were essentially a 7 card combo deck, the Naya decks tend to play longer and allow you more time to answer them.
I concede that sometimes, they can just finish you off with all red spells, and that can happen. Just as sometimes, the Bushwacker Zoo deck just goes nuts on T2-3, and you are dead. From experience, those games are more the exception than the rule.
As always, If you have any other questions, or want to chat more, feel free to ask here, or hit my up on FB if that works easier for you.
Thanks,
Carl
I think it's really hard for a SZ player to deal with Chalice or Engineered Explosives. BTW imho infect have a higher percentage in the heads up.
I earned 2 more since writing that. Sadly the deck is not a brew but a mash of some of the top finishing WB lists I have seen.
Hi, all the data comes from the competitive leagues for those formats that have them; Pauper and Vintage are the exceptions (there is only one league for Pauper, and I use the results from Dailies for Vintage).
Nice article, thanks for posting. Congrats on all your recent QPs.
Let us know how your W/B control deck gets on, it is an interesting brew you have there.
Thanks, this is super useful information.
Is this data from the Competitive or Friendly Leagues, or both?
Regarding Modern, I am surprised to see how popular Suicide Zoo is becoming nowadays on Magic Online. You need to be totally on top of this matchup if you compete in a Modern League.
Does anyone know what are the complete NIGHTMARE matchups from the perspective of the Suicide Zoo player?
Thanks Carl for those answers about Dredge. I am happy that Torpor Orb shuts down the Prized Amalgams.
I like your Green Moon deck a lot. Especially because it has Blood Moons and Thrun the Last Troll, two of my favorite cards in MTG's history and which I already own. The only thing holding me back right now are the Boggart Ram Gangs. I am terribly worried about the following sequence of events:
Turn 2:
I cast Boggart-Ram Gang.
Then opponent casts Lightning Bolt at the Declare Blockers step, targeting Boggart Ram Gang (I have nothing to say to that, so I shamelessly scoop up my 3-drop creature and place it to the graveyard).
Turn 3:
I cast second copy of Boggart-Ram Gang.
My opponent casts Snapcaster Mage, now with an arrogant smile on his face, as if he is saying to me: "How cute! Another Ram Gang! Michelle, you do realise that this is Modern format right, not draft at your local game store!") targeting the Lightning Bolt and then bolting the Boggart-Ram Gang. (Again, I have nothing to say about that, so I scoop up, red-faced, my 3-drop and place it in the graveyard. I go and make a cup of coffee because I need something to distract myself away from the fact that I am becoming ultra experienced in moving my 3 mana drops into the graveyard!).
Then, in the next round I might face Naya Burn, and a similarly horrible train wreck could occur if my opponent uses their LIGHTNING BOLT on my first Ram-Gang, and then SEARING BLAZE on my second Boggart-Ram Gang. I have paid many manas in the exchange (6 vs 3), and then suffered 3 damage as an extra bonus for all my manas that I have spent! At which point I go and make some more coffee to take my mind off the fact that I have become the master of offering 2-for-1's to my opponent.
This sequence of events can happen to you, it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone who plays Green Moon!
So I have 2 final questions for you:
1. Do these sequences happen quite a lot to you? I dislike allowing my opponent being to find easy outs to my threats. If I want to threaten an opponent, I prefer to cause them headaches with cards like Kitchen Finks/Huntmasters, or Slippery Bogles/Gladecover Scouts etc! I do love Thrun though, and I would not settle for 1 copy only. I love your idea to add another one.
2. Is the Naya Burn matchup an OK matchup for you? Does Blood Moon stay in, or come out, post-board (if you are on the Draw)? I can see how it would be nice shutting down the Nacatyls, Boros Charms and Atarka's Commands, but do you have time to deploy a Blood Moon if you are on the draw against them? Most of their cards are pure red, so they might be able to finish you off using red mana only.
Thanks,
Michelle
The other exception I would add to Modern Spells + Legacy (on-tribe?) creatures is the ten Alpha dual lands. No need to make people buy a whole new format's worth of lands.
Yes I know and I am quite happy about that personally. The decks are so fun to play.
Hi, Michelle,
Not a problem. Answers below:
1.) I've played Living End multiple times, and it's never been a matchup that has concerned me. Blood Moon is pretty good against them, and, as you noted, post board Trinisphere is pretty powerful as well.
2.) I've not played a ton against dredge. A fairly stock list is the one listed here: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-... (played by LUKEJF01). The deck is still weak to Blood Moon, running only one basic land of consequence. It should be noted that Torpor Orb shuts off free Prized Amalgam, since Narcomeba/Bloodghast entering from the graveyards won't trigger the ability. While it is certainly possible that they can come out quicker/faster than I would, especially on the play, it's a matchup that I don't think is horrible, and also fringe enough that I could reasonably hope to dodge it at most large events.
Hope that helps. Let me know if you have any other questions.
Thanks..Carl