One thing that was just revealed is that the LCPP will have its own set symbol (which leads to more hilarious complications, like the set not being legal in Planechase--seriously, there is no reason why that can't just be a single line of code). I have no clue what that means for the original versions of these cards price-wise.
Boo to Woo is right. I was once a fan a long time ago, but I slowly changed my opinion and after actually sitting and listening to his rant, I've heard enough for a lifetime. I think it's great to read books and learn, and I enjoy some deep, philosophical conversations, but I don't want that kind of conversation while I watch someone play a card game (especially when it involves playing devil's advocate to genocide).
Not only are the errors you mentioned there but the page does not want to stay put for me because of the continuing (and really idiotic) meta redirect to the login page. #thankswotc!
Ok so my question stillnis, why the origins tribal wars ish? Why weren't they legal, except for five cards, and then why did it take three weeks to fix?
Given that every card stores the Type Line data associated with it, I would presume that when checking "Do I get a boost from Goblin Warchief" or "Do I count towards an Elf tribal deck", the MTGO software would look for the string "Goblin" or the string "Elf" in that Type Line data. Doing it any other way would be crazy. (Not that I'd put crazy past them, but...)
The only extra work should come when you put out a set with Mistform Ultimus, or Mutavault, or put Lorwyn block out and introduce Changelings. Most sets have no such issues.
Casual formats are important to Magic. First of all there are people who enjoy them. Secondly, those people buy cards for casual that have NO OTHER home.
I bet that there will be an even bigger chunk of cards that never sell now. That's just sad. And I imagine it is bad for dealers and bot chains. And it's dealers and bot chains that make mtgo worth playing. Can you imagine having to buy packs or make casual trades with players to build decks? What a nightmare.
just so we're clear, I made AJ and Gianluca admins for the facebook group, simply because They are the most prominent and puremtgo-contributing Tribal Wars Aficionados I know. And I promise to play in an event very soon! :) (errrm not until December because nanowrimo is kicking my butt)
If they take away formats which make people like different parts of every set... the casual, commander, high CMC cards for example, it will mean the players who normally buy packs to get these cards will no longer buy packs/participate in releases. Or if they don't buy packs, they will no longer buy tickets to purchase singles.
Were the big multiplayer formats implemented badly online? Yeah. I wouldn't play them because I couldn't see anything on my screen when I tried. Did people love them anyway? Yeah, large following. Will those people now quit and cost Wotc far more than whatever 'cost saving' they are trying to rationalize? You bet.
Will the person who made the non-rational decision to cut these formats instead of investing in a new hire IT to maintain them get a bonus? I certainly hope not.
Your second point is far more to the point and is troublesome to say the least. Why indeed? My guess is they are hard coding each card (maybe some weird SQL thingee with C# (since they seem enamored of .NET) or the like -- this being deliberately vague because I have no clue what their server side stuff looks like at all...) and thus 5 got done before they were interrupted? Were those 5 cards reprints by any chance? Because that might explain it. As might if those 5 cards were a cycle of a new tribe.
At any rate half day is generous unless there are problems with compiling or the like.
However as to the time taken, the task itself might only be a few clicks or it could be several hundred clicks and while that would be very little time, they have a project schedule and probably have to keep that no matter what fixes come up and they probably do those fixes in a certain order even if they seem like they should be hotfixes to us.
For me, there is something about Tribal Wars that makes it much more enjoyable than other formats, and I suspect part of the reason is that there are no sideboards. I don't think I can make a solid argument as to why, but there is just certain opennes and variety that comes from not being able to additionally tune the deck after game 1.
And it's the only format besides Commander that doesn't have sideboards as far as I know. Some might say that this fact indicates that it should have the sideboards, but to me that is actually a reason to not have them so we can keep one format that offers a different perspective on how MTG can be played in this regard.
I was going to stay clear of this argument because a) I am not currently playing in the tourney so my word has no weight. and b) we have discussed this all before.
But I have to say while initially I was pro-sideboard the figures who argued against it made their points solidly (Look up AJ and Lord E's back n forth on the subject.) The main jist is that it isn't a matter of history as it is the nature of the format. The format's nature changes dramatically and intrinsically with adding in sideboards. The initial creators of the format chose wisely to exclude them. The difficulties in proving a deck to be legal post sideboard aside, there is the (not) small matter of how a deck fights against the meta. If you bring in sideboards there will eventually be decks that can side in and cover all weaknesses which would lead to a stale and largely pointless format.
Within the format as it is, if you dislike combo there are ways to fight against it but you sacrifice (in)vulnerability to aggro. If you want to fight against burn you can but you lay yourself open to midranged/control decks.
Reconsidering the ban list might be a stronger angle to strive for in conversation rather than trying to change the very foundation of a format many people seem to enjoy.
Imho if you are frustrated with spikes NOW? you will absolutely loath them in a tribal format with sideboarding. Just my 2 cents.
What is it about a creature-based format, except history, that makes you think a deck should stand on its own? Is history alone a strong enough argument to override the neuter-combos-and-burn argument?
NO to Sideboards! Again I agree with mihahitlor.
Additionally to his reasons: A Sideboard would not only eliminate an important unique feature of Tribal Wars( to create a deck that must stand alone, but can't defend vs. all threats), but would lead to complete different deck designs. If we want to try to collect some of the now isolated tribal players, I advise to leave it as it is.
I have an idea, albeit corny, for tribal sideboards. I support this idea only inasmuch as we are not worrying about cheating with diluting the tribal percentage in sideboarded games.
For the purposes of my idea, we have to recognize that Tribal Wars seems to be as balanced as Legacy. There are no real format-warping cards that REQUIRE a sideboard. When there are, we've banned them. Thus, my conclusion is that the #1 reason that makes sideboards desirable in Tribal Wars is almost purely flavor-based. In short, we don't want non-tribal cards dominating the tribal format if we can help it. Combos are particularly odious to most folks, but powerful cards like Swords of X/Y are up there. The first task we have to do is to reach a near-consensus on just HOW odious this problem is. Only then can we decide if the sideboard cure is worse than the anti-flavor-based disease.
Sideboards are intrinsically reactive (transformational sideboards excepted). However, because the reactive cards can necessarily take over the game (for example, Blood Moon or Circle of Protection: Red), especially considering that the primary angle of attack for the format is in the attack step, we want to avoid sideboard cards that permanently hose opposing decks.
Therefore, at least as a first step in tribal sideboards, I propose limiting tribal sideboards to instants and sorceries only. This will give every player the tools to stop combo, and troublesome permanents, and cutting the win percentage of the nauseating burn decks with lifegain options. It avoids strategy shutdown for the most part (there are a few recursive instants/sorceries like Darkblast) as the effects are of the one-shot variety only. A better variation on this may be to ban sideboarded mass removal like Wrath or Shatterstorm), but then we're clearly banning on an individual card basis.
I think this might lead to a net positive, but, again, only if the community is largely ok with the anti-dilution concerns that are inherent in tribal sideboards.
While I agree with almost everything you said, Rick, the Reserved List is a legal issue. As I understand, it falls under the doctrine of Promissory Estoppel. The short version is that when one party makes a promise to another, they are legally culpable for any monetary damages resulting from breaking that promise. Basically, if they were to break the Reserved List, they would lose any law suits for the lost value of the reprinted cards.
not to sound stupid, but, if I am reading you right, if they only had to correct a few lines of code or something as opposed to individually coding each card, then why did it take three weeks to implement? We started pushback about it on the 25th. If some dude/dudette could do it in half a day, why the three week disconnect?
Also why were five new cards from the set coded as tribal legal, but the rest weren't if it's not individually coded? please see my link to AJ's reddit post for edification
At the risk of pointless nitpicking, that doesn't refute what I wrote. "None of them may have been legal at first, but it took until August 11th for the Legality in Tribal Wars to be corrected." can simply mean that they wrote in the code that the Origins set is now labeled as legal for Tribal Wars. You think, apparently, that they checked off each card individually. My assertion, which you do not seem to understand, is that they simply wrote one line of code in the tribal legality function that all cards from Origins are now tribal legal. For reasons why, see my previous post.
why do they need to provide value for the money? Prizes are nice to win, but they aren't making formats so people never have to purchase new things because they can sell their prizes. They are making a product for revenue. Crappy prize support just means they make more money. For all of us angry, there's ten new bright and shiny players who don't know what it was like in the old days willing to fork over their money
I'd be more convinced about the suggestion wotc are putting resource into paid play formats if there was any evidence that mtgo provides value for money.
For me elimination of these formats is making me end the MTGO chapter of my life. I am an avid 2hg player and found these niche formats part of the total package that made MTGO a good replacement to IRL. But just as troubling to me is this is a notable change to what I thought was the company's strategic direction. I had concluded from my last article that the CEO of Hasbro was pursuing the strategy to maximize their player base with goals of attracting more players. That was a contrast of prior strategies of maximizing revenue. The removal of these formats not only ruined a big part of the daily fun I had on MTGO but also spoke loudly to me on a switch back to maximizing revenue and profit (lowering expenses).
FWIW, WOTC is pushing the discussion to be around having these formats take time from other things, but why is this an either/or? Why can't the hire more and give us both in order to try and increase the player base. Also why not introduce ways to expand these formats and make them more popular?
Anyway it was great talking, meeting and playing with everyone - later for now!
None of them may have been legal at first, but it took until August 11th for the Legality in Tribal Wars to be corrected. You can see the proof here: http://magic.wizards.com/en/MTGO/articles/archive/magic-online/magic-onl... In which it says: Duel Scene | Cards from Magic Origins are now correctly legal in the Legacy Tribal Wars format.
One thing that was just revealed is that the LCPP will have its own set symbol (which leads to more hilarious complications, like the set not being legal in Planechase--seriously, there is no reason why that can't just be a single line of code). I have no clue what that means for the original versions of these cards price-wise.
Boo to Woo is right. I was once a fan a long time ago, but I slowly changed my opinion and after actually sitting and listening to his rant, I've heard enough for a lifetime. I think it's great to read books and learn, and I enjoy some deep, philosophical conversations, but I don't want that kind of conversation while I watch someone play a card game (especially when it involves playing devil's advocate to genocide).
Not only are the errors you mentioned there but the page does not want to stay put for me because of the continuing (and really idiotic) meta redirect to the login page. #thankswotc!
I forgot to put a link in the article again--here's my spreadsheet for the LCPPs:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13FY9geyd3JKiijUFbJySQ0WSas_CFSpU...
Preordain is not restricted, but Brainstorm is. They all do similar things, strangely Ponder is my least favorite.
As I said in a manner of speaking: Because crazy and because time = money.
Ok so my question stillnis, why the origins tribal wars ish? Why weren't they legal, except for five cards, and then why did it take three weeks to fix?
Given that every card stores the Type Line data associated with it, I would presume that when checking "Do I get a boost from Goblin Warchief" or "Do I count towards an Elf tribal deck", the MTGO software would look for the string "Goblin" or the string "Elf" in that Type Line data. Doing it any other way would be crazy. (Not that I'd put crazy past them, but...)
The only extra work should come when you put out a set with Mistform Ultimus, or Mutavault, or put Lorwyn block out and introduce Changelings. Most sets have no such issues.
Casual formats are important to Magic. First of all there are people who enjoy them. Secondly, those people buy cards for casual that have NO OTHER home.
I bet that there will be an even bigger chunk of cards that never sell now. That's just sad. And I imagine it is bad for dealers and bot chains. And it's dealers and bot chains that make mtgo worth playing. Can you imagine having to buy packs or make casual trades with players to build decks? What a nightmare.
just so we're clear, I made AJ and Gianluca admins for the facebook group, simply because They are the most prominent and puremtgo-contributing Tribal Wars Aficionados I know. And I promise to play in an event very soon! :) (errrm not until December because nanowrimo is kicking my butt)
If they take away formats which make people like different parts of every set... the casual, commander, high CMC cards for example, it will mean the players who normally buy packs to get these cards will no longer buy packs/participate in releases. Or if they don't buy packs, they will no longer buy tickets to purchase singles.
Were the big multiplayer formats implemented badly online? Yeah. I wouldn't play them because I couldn't see anything on my screen when I tried. Did people love them anyway? Yeah, large following. Will those people now quit and cost Wotc far more than whatever 'cost saving' they are trying to rationalize? You bet.
Will the person who made the non-rational decision to cut these formats instead of investing in a new hire IT to maintain them get a bonus? I certainly hope not.
Your second point is far more to the point and is troublesome to say the least. Why indeed? My guess is they are hard coding each card (maybe some weird SQL thingee with C# (since they seem enamored of .NET) or the like -- this being deliberately vague because I have no clue what their server side stuff looks like at all...) and thus 5 got done before they were interrupted? Were those 5 cards reprints by any chance? Because that might explain it. As might if those 5 cards were a cycle of a new tribe.
At any rate half day is generous unless there are problems with compiling or the like.
However as to the time taken, the task itself might only be a few clicks or it could be several hundred clicks and while that would be very little time, they have a project schedule and probably have to keep that no matter what fixes come up and they probably do those fixes in a certain order even if they seem like they should be hotfixes to us.
Yoshis Woolly World is so dang cute! I've been playing it and Lego Dimensions with my son!
For me, there is something about Tribal Wars that makes it much more enjoyable than other formats, and I suspect part of the reason is that there are no sideboards. I don't think I can make a solid argument as to why, but there is just certain opennes and variety that comes from not being able to additionally tune the deck after game 1.
And it's the only format besides Commander that doesn't have sideboards as far as I know. Some might say that this fact indicates that it should have the sideboards, but to me that is actually a reason to not have them so we can keep one format that offers a different perspective on how MTG can be played in this regard.
I was going to stay clear of this argument because a) I am not currently playing in the tourney so my word has no weight. and b) we have discussed this all before.
But I have to say while initially I was pro-sideboard the figures who argued against it made their points solidly (Look up AJ and Lord E's back n forth on the subject.) The main jist is that it isn't a matter of history as it is the nature of the format. The format's nature changes dramatically and intrinsically with adding in sideboards. The initial creators of the format chose wisely to exclude them. The difficulties in proving a deck to be legal post sideboard aside, there is the (not) small matter of how a deck fights against the meta. If you bring in sideboards there will eventually be decks that can side in and cover all weaknesses which would lead to a stale and largely pointless format.
Within the format as it is, if you dislike combo there are ways to fight against it but you sacrifice (in)vulnerability to aggro. If you want to fight against burn you can but you lay yourself open to midranged/control decks.
Reconsidering the ban list might be a stronger angle to strive for in conversation rather than trying to change the very foundation of a format many people seem to enjoy.
Imho if you are frustrated with spikes NOW? you will absolutely loath them in a tribal format with sideboarding. Just my 2 cents.
*wanders back to the rock*
What is it about a creature-based format, except history, that makes you think a deck should stand on its own? Is history alone a strong enough argument to override the neuter-combos-and-burn argument?
NO to Sideboards! Again I agree with mihahitlor.
Additionally to his reasons: A Sideboard would not only eliminate an important unique feature of Tribal Wars( to create a deck that must stand alone, but can't defend vs. all threats), but would lead to complete different deck designs. If we want to try to collect some of the now isolated tribal players, I advise to leave it as it is.
I have an idea, albeit corny, for tribal sideboards. I support this idea only inasmuch as we are not worrying about cheating with diluting the tribal percentage in sideboarded games.
For the purposes of my idea, we have to recognize that Tribal Wars seems to be as balanced as Legacy. There are no real format-warping cards that REQUIRE a sideboard. When there are, we've banned them. Thus, my conclusion is that the #1 reason that makes sideboards desirable in Tribal Wars is almost purely flavor-based. In short, we don't want non-tribal cards dominating the tribal format if we can help it. Combos are particularly odious to most folks, but powerful cards like Swords of X/Y are up there. The first task we have to do is to reach a near-consensus on just HOW odious this problem is. Only then can we decide if the sideboard cure is worse than the anti-flavor-based disease.
Sideboards are intrinsically reactive (transformational sideboards excepted). However, because the reactive cards can necessarily take over the game (for example, Blood Moon or Circle of Protection: Red), especially considering that the primary angle of attack for the format is in the attack step, we want to avoid sideboard cards that permanently hose opposing decks.
Therefore, at least as a first step in tribal sideboards, I propose limiting tribal sideboards to instants and sorceries only. This will give every player the tools to stop combo, and troublesome permanents, and cutting the win percentage of the nauseating burn decks with lifegain options. It avoids strategy shutdown for the most part (there are a few recursive instants/sorceries like Darkblast) as the effects are of the one-shot variety only. A better variation on this may be to ban sideboarded mass removal like Wrath or Shatterstorm), but then we're clearly banning on an individual card basis.
I think this might lead to a net positive, but, again, only if the community is largely ok with the anti-dilution concerns that are inherent in tribal sideboards.
While I agree with almost everything you said, Rick, the Reserved List is a legal issue. As I understand, it falls under the doctrine of Promissory Estoppel. The short version is that when one party makes a promise to another, they are legally culpable for any monetary damages resulting from breaking that promise. Basically, if they were to break the Reserved List, they would lose any law suits for the lost value of the reprinted cards.
not to sound stupid, but, if I am reading you right, if they only had to correct a few lines of code or something as opposed to individually coding each card, then why did it take three weeks to implement? We started pushback about it on the 25th. If some dude/dudette could do it in half a day, why the three week disconnect?
Also why were five new cards from the set coded as tribal legal, but the rest weren't if it's not individually coded? please see my link to AJ's reddit post for edification
At the risk of pointless nitpicking, that doesn't refute what I wrote. "None of them may have been legal at first, but it took until August 11th for the Legality in Tribal Wars to be corrected." can simply mean that they wrote in the code that the Origins set is now labeled as legal for Tribal Wars. You think, apparently, that they checked off each card individually. My assertion, which you do not seem to understand, is that they simply wrote one line of code in the tribal legality function that all cards from Origins are now tribal legal. For reasons why, see my previous post.
why do they need to provide value for the money? Prizes are nice to win, but they aren't making formats so people never have to purchase new things because they can sell their prizes. They are making a product for revenue. Crappy prize support just means they make more money. For all of us angry, there's ten new bright and shiny players who don't know what it was like in the old days willing to fork over their money
I'd be more convinced about the suggestion wotc are putting resource into paid play formats if there was any evidence that mtgo provides value for money.
For me elimination of these formats is making me end the MTGO chapter of my life. I am an avid 2hg player and found these niche formats part of the total package that made MTGO a good replacement to IRL. But just as troubling to me is this is a notable change to what I thought was the company's strategic direction. I had concluded from my last article that the CEO of Hasbro was pursuing the strategy to maximize their player base with goals of attracting more players. That was a contrast of prior strategies of maximizing revenue. The removal of these formats not only ruined a big part of the daily fun I had on MTGO but also spoke loudly to me on a switch back to maximizing revenue and profit (lowering expenses).
FWIW, WOTC is pushing the discussion to be around having these formats take time from other things, but why is this an either/or? Why can't the hire more and give us both in order to try and increase the player base. Also why not introduce ways to expand these formats and make them more popular?
Anyway it was great talking, meeting and playing with everyone - later for now!
not a faulty conclusion.
None of them may have been legal at first, but it took until August 11th for the Legality in Tribal Wars to be corrected. You can see the proof here: http://magic.wizards.com/en/MTGO/articles/archive/magic-online/magic-onl... In which it says: Duel Scene | Cards from Magic Origins are now correctly legal in the Legacy Tribal Wars format.
AJ, cohost with me on FFTR, is a particularly avid Tribal wars player, and bought a set of Gideons during the prerelease for Human tribal. The prerelease was July 24th. On July 25th, AJ posted on Reddit July 25: https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGO/comments/3ek1m2/origins_format_legality_bu...
So from te 24th until August 11th, 3 weeks, no origins Tribal Legality.