Yeah, I honestly hope we never get fetches + duals in Standard again. Not only does it get ridiculously expensive, it also means every deck plays every color one way or another, which is frankly very dull.
Yeah, there are certainly decks that can break the symmetry of the card - I wouldn't mind giving it a try in my Orc Dash deck - but they're not, as far as I can see, decks that are currently consistently producing winning results, so it doesn't seem warranted to think that The Abyss would push them over the top without actually testing it.
Yup, and it's also very good in Gravecrawler/Bloodghast deck.
It's very strong in the right deck. But on the other hand, many things are very strong in the right decks in Legacy Tribal Wars. I mean we have Aluren, Scapeshift, Splinter Twin, Entomb, Bridge from Below, Show and Tell, Natural Order, Grave of the Burnwillows etc. all allowed. I leaned towards banning it, but thinking about all the other powerful options make me not so sure anymore.
The Abyss seems quite strong in the artifact creature based decks such as myr or scarecrows, which they can ramp and cast it during turn 3 most of the times. You can even ramp it with dark ritual during t1 or t2 if needed.
The Abyss seems...slow. It's obviously very powerful given enough time, but what kind of deck are we expecting to see it in that will be so oppressive that the card needs to be banned? I don't know, I've never played with the card, but I think it deserves to be tested.
Good question. Since this is effectively a winnowing process to determine worthiness for a ban in the present environment, the cards we've already found worthy in the current meta should probably stay banned here, at least for this go around.
Accident? I am not convinced. I am of the opinion that while those who get to decide about all things MTGO are the ones to blame for the format removals this is not a universal attitude among WOTC employees. I suspect the article publication timing is not coincidental at all.
First off, Thank so much for all of the info and input you gave me. I was in no way bashing Pauper, I was just saying that it has never been my best format. I did want to slowly get back into so I am very thankful for the time and energy you took to help me out. It does seem that list I got was very out of date and I will mess with the deck using the info you gave. Who knows, perhaps I will be able to get into Pauper and start to enjoy it once again.
“I think I remember why I stopped playing Pauper” - What do you mean by that?
I've been covering Pauper for the past 3 ½ years straight, and spent a lot of my early days piloting Mono White. Tokens is going to give you the best chance, though it doesn't appear to be a top-tier strategy these days.
This is where your opponents largely play whatever they want and ignore metagame conventions. With that being said, I'm going to try and offer you the suggestions you requested.
Mono Blue Delver has been one of the most prominent decks in the format for years. It's an aggro control deck that resolves the early threats Delver of Secrets and Cloud of Faeries while keeping opponents down on tempo with Counterspell, Ninja of the Deep Hours, Snap and Spellstutter Sprite.
Your Tokens strategy should have natural advantages over this deck. They can't manage oppressive board states very well, and you go slightly bigger with many of your token producers netting you 2-for-1 potential.
BUT they will beat you every time if you don't draw the mana to play your spells. 19 lands is simply not enough in a deck that relies heavily on the cards Battle Screech and Triplicate Spirits.
I think you can afford to merge this list with yours by keeping some of your Triplicate Spirits (my gut says 3 is the right number, you don't want multiples early but drawing 1 or so every game is a good look).
Icatian Javelineers feels unnecessary. It's a relic of older metagames and this Tokens strategy should already prey upon small creature decks enough to not require the one-time pinger. Additionally you don't have Kor Skyfisher to reset it, which is part of what made it playable back in the day.
If I were testing the deck out I would adjust the main like so:
The overall strategy intends to punish spot removal rather than make it valuable. Doomed Traveler helps with that and also gets into the air which is where this deck wins games.
Steppe ensures we hit the key spells but can also be cycled if too many lands end up getting drawn. I like Armorer in this strategy to protect against Cuombajj Witches out of the popular Mono Black Control.
Which brings us to that matchup. They are a control deck interested in grinding you out of resources and creating a big board for Gray Merchant of Asphodel. You can steal wins off of them based on each player's draw, but if they're playing Crypt Rats you will have a hard time.
One of the ways they beat you is with Gray Merchant of Asphodel. Cuombajj Witches can also be a problem. For this reason (and for other popular decks like Kiln Fiend/Nivix Cyclops) I think your sideboard could use a lot of Journey to Nowheres.
They might take out Edict effects against you which would make Obsidian Acolyte or Order of Leitbur useful, but I doubt they will since they'll likely just play all the board control they can get. If Witches ends up being a huge problem you can run a card like Lumithread Field or Sunlance.
Based on experience my guess would be this matchup is slightly unfavorable (depends a lot on how many Crypt Rats they play).
Esper Familiars is next, a combo decks that makes infinite mana, mills you to death and makes everyone cry. You can't interact with them in a meaningful way, so don't waste precious sideboard slots trying. Best bet is to race them with an explosive Pledge draw. Matchup is probably unfavorable.
Kiln Fiend/Nivix Cylcops.dek is an aggro combo decks that makes a Nivix Cyclops unblockable, pairs it with Temur Battle Rage and one-shot kills people.
I think the best plan is to keep their board down with removal and try outracing them with sideboard Prismatic Strands. This is a two-time damage prevention spell that also has applications against Mono Green Stompy (Pauper's favorite green aggro deck). If you really want to try and lock them out of the game you can consider Rune of Protection: Red here.
No plan is foolproof, they can board into more Dispels and/or Flaring Pain. I think Journey and Strands are your best general answers and will have more applications against the larger field. I'm not sure how good this matchup is, but I'm guessing slightly unfavorable since they play an unfair game and can bypass all your blockers.
Going to cut it short here since it's almost an article in itself at this point.
I'm not sure your what your schedule is like, but the best chance you have of winning with these decks will come with mass gaming and mastery/experiential knowledge. That kind of stuff will give you an edge since you're already climbing uphill in terms of deck choice.
I definitely don't know everything, so some of this info could be off.
Please let me know if this is helpful, and if you have any questions!
I played the tribal format when Jitte was legal. It has not lost its power. In a mandatory creature base format, the best equipments become considerably more powerful.
I think these two are talking about how expensive it is to play in the big four formats: vintage, legacy, modern, standard. Which, as recent events show, is what WOTC really focuses on, particularly modern and standard. I'm casual, and always will be, but If I saw mtgo and wanted to buy in to standard or modern, or try drafting (Which they promote) or leagues, I would need TONS of money. I'm totally, and I mean this and am not being snarky, glad you found a format you like and some folks to play casually with, but you are the exception to the rule. This game is expensive.
If I were to compare Tsabo's Decree to a mass removal spell it would be Plague Wind rather than Damnation, but I agree that most black decks would prefer Damnation due to it's cost.
I don't know, I think it really depends on whether there will be a ramp deck that will exploit it. Not sure whether a black ramp/ramp splashing black is a good strategy in Tribal though, and if it is, does it want to cast Tsabo's Decree instead of some other 6cc card. So given that I have no good idea whether the card would be actually broken, I would agree with you that we allow it.
I respectfully disagree. As a new player, I haven't spent more than $10 since August, MTGO download notwithstanding. However, I opted to play in the Standard PAUPER format, which is now seriously hampered by 1) loss of the Standard Pauper filter, and 2) traditional Standard players not seemingly aware that the filter is gone, based on rude comments suggesting I don't know how to use the non-existent filters and are ruining the experience for them.
I hosted 6 games today. ALL SIX PLAYERS CONCEDED because of the filter issues. The only way I've played since Wednesday is via direct challenge of players I know from the Standard Pauper leagues.
Not really - we have Sensei banned in every format now, so Altar could have come off when Sensei went on.
Makes sense.
Sensei-sensei combo.
Nice to see you all still going strong after the filter was removed. It seems like a very interesting time with being able to make a new banned list.
I saw an email with a banned list for Pure, and I was curious about Altar of the Brood. What sort of decks were using it that it was so strong in?
I'm against strong creature removal in Underdog: no Moat, Plague, Abyss. Also, no to the annoying Stasis/Arboria.
Yeah, I honestly hope we never get fetches + duals in Standard again. Not only does it get ridiculously expensive, it also means every deck plays every color one way or another, which is frankly very dull.
Yeah, there are certainly decks that can break the symmetry of the card - I wouldn't mind giving it a try in my Orc Dash deck - but they're not, as far as I can see, decks that are currently consistently producing winning results, so it doesn't seem warranted to think that The Abyss would push them over the top without actually testing it.
Yup, and it's also very good in Gravecrawler/Bloodghast deck.
It's very strong in the right deck. But on the other hand, many things are very strong in the right decks in Legacy Tribal Wars. I mean we have Aluren, Scapeshift, Splinter Twin, Entomb, Bridge from Below, Show and Tell, Natural Order, Grave of the Burnwillows etc. all allowed. I leaned towards banning it, but thinking about all the other powerful options make me not so sure anymore.
The Abyss seems quite strong in the artifact creature based decks such as myr or scarecrows, which they can ramp and cast it during turn 3 most of the times. You can even ramp it with dark ritual during t1 or t2 if needed.
Oh, I forgot about it yesterday, but I'm pretty sure the Orc deck I played earned achievement number 12 - Prince of Paupers.
The Abyss seems...slow. It's obviously very powerful given enough time, but what kind of deck are we expecting to see it in that will be so oppressive that the card needs to be banned? I don't know, I've never played with the card, but I think it deserves to be tested.
Good question. Since this is effectively a winnowing process to determine worthiness for a ban in the present environment, the cards we've already found worthy in the current meta should probably stay banned here, at least for this go around.
Accident? I am not convinced. I am of the opinion that while those who get to decide about all things MTGO are the ones to blame for the format removals this is not a universal attitude among WOTC employees. I suspect the article publication timing is not coincidental at all.
Good catch, sorry I never play straight legacy so I forgot that. Thanks.
Are we talking about bringing back Top and Hypergenesis and Beck and Call, etc. too? or just the Wizards tribal ban list?
First off, Thank so much for all of the info and input you gave me. I was in no way bashing Pauper, I was just saying that it has never been my best format. I did want to slowly get back into so I am very thankful for the time and energy you took to help me out. It does seem that list I got was very out of date and I will mess with the deck using the info you gave. Who knows, perhaps I will be able to get into Pauper and start to enjoy it once again.
Skullclamp isn't in the legacy card pool, it got banned there. There were several Skullclamp decks during vintageween.
But Skullclamp is OK?
Hi, thanks for the article!
“I think I remember why I stopped playing Pauper” - What do you mean by that?
I've been covering Pauper for the past 3 ½ years straight, and spent a lot of my early days piloting Mono White. Tokens is going to give you the best chance, though it doesn't appear to be a top-tier strategy these days.
This link will give a bit of insight regarding the top decks in the format http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/pauper#online
However, you're playing in the PREs - http://gatherling.com/eventreport.php?format=&series=Pauper+Classic+Tues...
This is where your opponents largely play whatever they want and ignore metagame conventions. With that being said, I'm going to try and offer you the suggestions you requested.
Mono Blue Delver has been one of the most prominent decks in the format for years. It's an aggro control deck that resolves the early threats Delver of Secrets and Cloud of Faeries while keeping opponents down on tempo with Counterspell, Ninja of the Deep Hours, Snap and Spellstutter Sprite.
Your Tokens strategy should have natural advantages over this deck. They can't manage oppressive board states very well, and you go slightly bigger with many of your token producers netting you 2-for-1 potential.
BUT they will beat you every time if you don't draw the mana to play your spells. 19 lands is simply not enough in a deck that relies heavily on the cards Battle Screech and Triplicate Spirits.
This list has better mana, not only by playing more lands and mitigating flood with Secluded Steppe, but also by having a leaner curve - http://gatherling.com/deck.php?mode=view&id=33549
I think you can afford to merge this list with yours by keeping some of your Triplicate Spirits (my gut says 3 is the right number, you don't want multiples early but drawing 1 or so every game is a good look).
Icatian Javelineers feels unnecessary. It's a relic of older metagames and this Tokens strategy should already prey upon small creature decks enough to not require the one-time pinger. Additionally you don't have Kor Skyfisher to reset it, which is part of what made it playable back in the day.
If I were testing the deck out I would adjust the main like so:
-4 Icatian Javelineers
-1 Plains
-2 Selfless Cathar
-1 Triplicate Spirits
and 1 other cut based on your preference
+4 Doomed Traveler
+4 Secluded Steppe
+1 Veteran Armorer
The overall strategy intends to punish spot removal rather than make it valuable. Doomed Traveler helps with that and also gets into the air which is where this deck wins games.
Steppe ensures we hit the key spells but can also be cycled if too many lands end up getting drawn. I like Armorer in this strategy to protect against Cuombajj Witches out of the popular Mono Black Control.
Which brings us to that matchup. They are a control deck interested in grinding you out of resources and creating a big board for Gray Merchant of Asphodel. You can steal wins off of them based on each player's draw, but if they're playing Crypt Rats you will have a hard time.
One of the ways they beat you is with Gray Merchant of Asphodel. Cuombajj Witches can also be a problem. For this reason (and for other popular decks like Kiln Fiend/Nivix Cyclops) I think your sideboard could use a lot of Journey to Nowheres.
They might take out Edict effects against you which would make Obsidian Acolyte or Order of Leitbur useful, but I doubt they will since they'll likely just play all the board control they can get. If Witches ends up being a huge problem you can run a card like Lumithread Field or Sunlance.
Based on experience my guess would be this matchup is slightly unfavorable (depends a lot on how many Crypt Rats they play).
Esper Familiars is next, a combo decks that makes infinite mana, mills you to death and makes everyone cry. You can't interact with them in a meaningful way, so don't waste precious sideboard slots trying. Best bet is to race them with an explosive Pledge draw. Matchup is probably unfavorable.
Kiln Fiend/Nivix Cylcops.dek is an aggro combo decks that makes a Nivix Cyclops unblockable, pairs it with Temur Battle Rage and one-shot kills people.
I think the best plan is to keep their board down with removal and try outracing them with sideboard Prismatic Strands. This is a two-time damage prevention spell that also has applications against Mono Green Stompy (Pauper's favorite green aggro deck). If you really want to try and lock them out of the game you can consider Rune of Protection: Red here.
No plan is foolproof, they can board into more Dispels and/or Flaring Pain. I think Journey and Strands are your best general answers and will have more applications against the larger field. I'm not sure how good this matchup is, but I'm guessing slightly unfavorable since they play an unfair game and can bypass all your blockers.
Going to cut it short here since it's almost an article in itself at this point.
I'm not sure your what your schedule is like, but the best chance you have of winning with these decks will come with mass gaming and mastery/experiential knowledge. That kind of stuff will give you an edge since you're already climbing uphill in terms of deck choice.
I definitely don't know everything, so some of this info could be off.
Please let me know if this is helpful, and if you have any questions!
Best of luck, fight the good fight.
I played the tribal format when Jitte was legal. It has not lost its power. In a mandatory creature base format, the best equipments become considerably more powerful.
I think these two are talking about how expensive it is to play in the big four formats: vintage, legacy, modern, standard. Which, as recent events show, is what WOTC really focuses on, particularly modern and standard. I'm casual, and always will be, but If I saw mtgo and wanted to buy in to standard or modern, or try drafting (Which they promote) or leagues, I would need TONS of money. I'm totally, and I mean this and am not being snarky, glad you found a format you like and some folks to play casually with, but you are the exception to the rule. This game is expensive.
Now that makes sense.
So you're singling out Jitte as the most broken, most insanely meta-wrecking card in the Legacy pool for tribal? I think I agree.
I think it's closer to All is Dust, except when the All is Dust player ends up facing another colorless tribe.
If I were to compare Tsabo's Decree to a mass removal spell it would be Plague Wind rather than Damnation, but I agree that most black decks would prefer Damnation due to it's cost.
I don't know, I think it really depends on whether there will be a ramp deck that will exploit it. Not sure whether a black ramp/ramp splashing black is a good strategy in Tribal though, and if it is, does it want to cast Tsabo's Decree instead of some other 6cc card. So given that I have no good idea whether the card would be actually broken, I would agree with you that we allow it.
I respectfully disagree. As a new player, I haven't spent more than $10 since August, MTGO download notwithstanding. However, I opted to play in the Standard PAUPER format, which is now seriously hampered by 1) loss of the Standard Pauper filter, and 2) traditional Standard players not seemingly aware that the filter is gone, based on rude comments suggesting I don't know how to use the non-existent filters and are ruining the experience for them.
I hosted 6 games today. ALL SIX PLAYERS CONCEDED because of the filter issues. The only way I've played since Wednesday is via direct challenge of players I know from the Standard Pauper leagues.