@PhillipDuda - good question! I think the best reason to use green here is mana fixing - you get Abundant Growth and Manamorphose, and you can fetch basic lands with Sylvan Ranger. Since you're playing 3 colors you need these options, otherwise your deck is going to slow down. I've seen WU tokens that splashes U for Keep Watch, but I haven't seen a three color version attempted using W as the primary color.
interesting solution. The best part is the simplicity and making a large swath of legacy available. The worst part is that it likely hurts existing Legacy players (who presumably have a good collection of duals) even more than the dealers. That said, it's feasible, and it doesn't break a promise. Vintage would drop in price, too, since supply would increase. Certain cards would increase in price (think: Tabernacle) as the corresponding decks become cheaper and increase in demand. As far as value goes, they never promised to artificially keep the value of the cards intact, only not to reproduce them.
yeah, I'm not really sure "I live in a country without good MTG distribution" is a valid reason to not include staples in commander decks. It sucks, but it is a problem that effects a minority of players. Besides, if WotC put legendary duals in the next Commander product they would HAVE to increase circulation of the decks by 5 fold, which might actually help people in areas with poor distribution rather than hurt them.
I'm really stuck on the idea of them being in a commander product though, because you would have to keep them out of Modern and I'm not sure how else to accomplish that.
Just banning the dual lands from Legacy takes care of like 80-90% of the price problem. Also they're the cards almost every deck runs - cards like Aluren and Metalworker are played in so much smaller a percentage of legacy decks that the current size supply is a lot more adequate to meet the demands of the format. So why ban them, and why are we banning Lady Caleria again?
Still, whether you ban the whole reserve list, or just the dual lands, it does concern me that "you can't play these dual lands in Legacy" might damage their price severely, just like "we reprinted the dual lands" would. By reducing demand, rather than by raising supply. And dropping their price is what they're presumably trying to avoid, so I'm not sure this new format is a viable solution either. Pure collectors would still want them, but collector-players would want them less, and pure players wouldn't want them at all. Less demand = lower price.
Especially in countries Target doesn't exist and most shops that carry mtg are special tabletop games stores. They have limited access to mtg products and they depend HEAVILY on suppliers which supply a lot of stores at once. That often causes shortages.
Except that commander players wouldn't be really thrilled - where I live most of Commander products that contain legacy staples are preordered en masse then sold for a secondary market value of often 400-600% of the initial price (which is steep in the first place after currency conversion and tax).
My main problem with SaffronOlive's article is that it presumes that the only way for WotC to fix the scarcity problem is to have a massive transfer of wealth from their most dedicated and longest-playing customers to WotC (they take money from us so they can have reprints that make THEM money). This seems like the absolute wrong way to look at the problem. There are more creative ways to fix the problem that both make WotC money AND don't completely annihilate thousands of dollars from every serious eternal player's collection. The idea that Eternal is a zero-sum game and that we essentially have to sacrifice so that WotC can be bothered to support our formats is an awful way to start the discussion.
Off the top of my head: what if the next commander product (to keep it out of modern) had a set of legendary true duals? That move alone would drop some legacy deck prices by hundreds (some blue decks over $1k) and increase the number of people who could play the format by 25% or more. It would allow multicolored decks access to at least one $20 dual for each color combination and they could then supplement those with a few other ABU duals as nessesary. It would hurt the value of the ABU duals a BIT, but not to the extend eliminating the reserve list or banning all reserved list cards would. Players can play legacy, WotC gets the best-selling supplemental product of all time, commander players are thrilled, current eternal players don't lose much (and even then might GAIN the ability to play more eternal)--THAT is the kind of solution this problem needs.
I do love how Wizards went from a Vintage Challenge to a Modern one. I guess Legacy doesn't get a monthly challenge with prizes including Rishadan Port.
One way to save some of Legacy is to introduce new cards, especially in Legacy-only products, that highly approximate banlist cards without being a necessary addition to their respective lists. This will work with cards that are not currently played as a 4x-of. In the Lands deck, you could reprint Tabernacle as a snow land. Regular Lands players only play 1-2 copies of the card anyways, so the new analogue print merely replaces the expensive card, not augments its power. Snow duals could be fun too. Similarly, a New Moat could cost 3W or allow attacks to planeswalkers or by islandwalkers. Cards like Mox Diamond or Aluren are trickier to save since perhaps more than 4x copies would be played if available. Without being too obvious ("Sacrifice CARDNAME if you control Mox Diamond"), the new card could have a restriction like "Sacrifice CARDNAME if you control three or more artifacts."
I think the support for Eternal formats online is getting much better. The thing is that Grand Prix and Pro Tours give formats a feeling of legitimacy that nothing else really does. People want to play what their heroes are playing.
I know that seems odd, but I've had people flat out say that they don't consider Vintage a real format for just that reason. Without major sanctioned Legacy tournaments available the same would be said for Legacy. It's sad, but it is just the way things work.
I for one refuse to let the Pro scene dictate what I will spend my time playing. I like dual lands, I like powerful cards, so I want to play the real eternal formats. Even if I got good enough to go to another Pro Tour (very unlikely) I wouldn't have the means to compete properly. I'm fine with playing an online only format.
The reason that there aren't any Delvers in that Grixis Delver deck is that it is actually Grixis Control, commonly referred to as Grixis Thieves (Notion Thief and Dack Fayden, the greatest thief in the multiverse). Instead of Gush and Young Pyromancer in an inherently low-CMC fair deck, that type of deck is built around Thirst for Knowledge (since the unrestriction, prior to this it was 1 TFK, Multiple DTT 1 Treasure Cruise).
This is the type of deck that took second at Vintage Champs, and it has been hovering around the most popular deck on MTGO. It has recently receded into second place, behind UWR Mentor decks.
EDIT: That dude must really hate Monastery Mentor, two MAINDECK Illness in the ranks to go with the four SB. Well, it's randomly good against Oath too.
Yeah they'd NEVER do that. To them there is no reason to, and it would be a slippery slope. What about Tarmogoyf? Should they be proxied? They cost more than some reserved list cards.
I feel you, but they'd never go for that. Legacy would have to do what Vintage has done and run their own non-sanctioned events.
No-Reserve-List-Legacy doesn't really seem like much of a solution, it just seems like a slightly modified version of the same problems as reprinting the Reserve List cards; instead of increasing supply, you're decreasing demand but the end result will be the same: the cards will lose value. I suppose there's less chance of legal action against WotC, since they never promised not to ban all of the cards but the flip-side is that you run a much greater risk of alienating current Legacy players, since you've not only devalued their collection, but also made a massive change to a format they like.
The most obvious solution to the growth of Legacy and Vintage would seem to simply be MTGO, but, for whatever reason, WotC appears to be incredibly reluctant to support the formats properly online.
In case anyone is wondering, the One With Nothings are the Commander Prize Pack card, Magus of the Wheel. Because wheel of fortune at instant speed on a mana-efficient body is kinda good.
Toodlebye, Scapeshift. You had your moment in the sun, but stay in the sun too long and you get Icarus'd.
@PhillipDuda - good question! I think the best reason to use green here is mana fixing - you get Abundant Growth and Manamorphose, and you can fetch basic lands with Sylvan Ranger. Since you're playing 3 colors you need these options, otherwise your deck is going to slow down. I've seen WU tokens that splashes U for Keep Watch, but I haven't seen a three color version attempted using W as the primary color.
interesting solution. The best part is the simplicity and making a large swath of legacy available. The worst part is that it likely hurts existing Legacy players (who presumably have a good collection of duals) even more than the dealers. That said, it's feasible, and it doesn't break a promise. Vintage would drop in price, too, since supply would increase. Certain cards would increase in price (think: Tabernacle) as the corresponding decks become cheaper and increase in demand. As far as value goes, they never promised to artificially keep the value of the cards intact, only not to reproduce them.
yeah, I'm not really sure "I live in a country without good MTG distribution" is a valid reason to not include staples in commander decks. It sucks, but it is a problem that effects a minority of players. Besides, if WotC put legendary duals in the next Commander product they would HAVE to increase circulation of the decks by 5 fold, which might actually help people in areas with poor distribution rather than hurt them.
I'm really stuck on the idea of them being in a commander product though, because you would have to keep them out of Modern and I'm not sure how else to accomplish that.
Spitting spider is a darned good spider to not hit the bin if you can save it...
Outside of NA supplies are bound to be limited no matter what, sadly.
Just banning the dual lands from Legacy takes care of like 80-90% of the price problem. Also they're the cards almost every deck runs - cards like Aluren and Metalworker are played in so much smaller a percentage of legacy decks that the current size supply is a lot more adequate to meet the demands of the format. So why ban them, and why are we banning Lady Caleria again?
Still, whether you ban the whole reserve list, or just the dual lands, it does concern me that "you can't play these dual lands in Legacy" might damage their price severely, just like "we reprinted the dual lands" would. By reducing demand, rather than by raising supply. And dropping their price is what they're presumably trying to avoid, so I'm not sure this new format is a viable solution either. Pure collectors would still want them, but collector-players would want them less, and pure players wouldn't want them at all. Less demand = lower price.
Especially in countries Target doesn't exist and most shops that carry mtg are special tabletop games stores. They have limited access to mtg products and they depend HEAVILY on suppliers which supply a lot of stores at once. That often causes shortages.
Target's reach isn't thorough though I admit Kmart covers areas Target does not seem to be in. Their selection however is pretty terrible.
are there not Big Box stores there? Target always has commander in stock at MSRP.
Except that commander players wouldn't be really thrilled - where I live most of Commander products that contain legacy staples are preordered en masse then sold for a secondary market value of often 400-600% of the initial price (which is steep in the first place after currency conversion and tax).
My main problem with SaffronOlive's article is that it presumes that the only way for WotC to fix the scarcity problem is to have a massive transfer of wealth from their most dedicated and longest-playing customers to WotC (they take money from us so they can have reprints that make THEM money). This seems like the absolute wrong way to look at the problem. There are more creative ways to fix the problem that both make WotC money AND don't completely annihilate thousands of dollars from every serious eternal player's collection. The idea that Eternal is a zero-sum game and that we essentially have to sacrifice so that WotC can be bothered to support our formats is an awful way to start the discussion.
Off the top of my head: what if the next commander product (to keep it out of modern) had a set of legendary true duals? That move alone would drop some legacy deck prices by hundreds (some blue decks over $1k) and increase the number of people who could play the format by 25% or more. It would allow multicolored decks access to at least one $20 dual for each color combination and they could then supplement those with a few other ABU duals as nessesary. It would hurt the value of the ABU duals a BIT, but not to the extend eliminating the reserve list or banning all reserved list cards would. Players can play legacy, WotC gets the best-selling supplemental product of all time, commander players are thrilled, current eternal players don't lose much (and even then might GAIN the ability to play more eternal)--THAT is the kind of solution this problem needs.
That's a slippery slope that I can assure you Wizards will never set a single foot on.
I think they should allow proxies for cards on the reserve list; limiting the amount to 5-10 in the 75.
Why would such a Moat in a Legacy-only product (as mentioned above) affect Standard?
I do love how Wizards went from a Vintage Challenge to a Modern one. I guess Legacy doesn't get a monthly challenge with prizes including Rishadan Port.
This new Moat version might warp Standard a little bit.
Thanks Smawatts, appreciate the feedback. Mysteries of the Deep is an interesting one, hadn't come across that before!
One way to save some of Legacy is to introduce new cards, especially in Legacy-only products, that highly approximate banlist cards without being a necessary addition to their respective lists. This will work with cards that are not currently played as a 4x-of. In the Lands deck, you could reprint Tabernacle as a snow land. Regular Lands players only play 1-2 copies of the card anyways, so the new analogue print merely replaces the expensive card, not augments its power. Snow duals could be fun too. Similarly, a New Moat could cost 3W or allow attacks to planeswalkers or by islandwalkers. Cards like Mox Diamond or Aluren are trickier to save since perhaps more than 4x copies would be played if available. Without being too obvious ("Sacrifice CARDNAME if you control Mox Diamond"), the new card could have a restriction like "Sacrifice CARDNAME if you control three or more artifacts."
The logistical nightmare of collating, maintaining, communicating, and enforcing a ban list that size...
I think the support for Eternal formats online is getting much better. The thing is that Grand Prix and Pro Tours give formats a feeling of legitimacy that nothing else really does. People want to play what their heroes are playing.
I know that seems odd, but I've had people flat out say that they don't consider Vintage a real format for just that reason. Without major sanctioned Legacy tournaments available the same would be said for Legacy. It's sad, but it is just the way things work.
I for one refuse to let the Pro scene dictate what I will spend my time playing. I like dual lands, I like powerful cards, so I want to play the real eternal formats. Even if I got good enough to go to another Pro Tour (very unlikely) I wouldn't have the means to compete properly. I'm fine with playing an online only format.
The reason that there aren't any Delvers in that Grixis Delver deck is that it is actually Grixis Control, commonly referred to as Grixis Thieves (Notion Thief and Dack Fayden, the greatest thief in the multiverse). Instead of Gush and Young Pyromancer in an inherently low-CMC fair deck, that type of deck is built around Thirst for Knowledge (since the unrestriction, prior to this it was 1 TFK, Multiple DTT 1 Treasure Cruise).
This is the type of deck that took second at Vintage Champs, and it has been hovering around the most popular deck on MTGO. It has recently receded into second place, behind UWR Mentor decks.
EDIT: That dude must really hate Monastery Mentor, two MAINDECK Illness in the ranks to go with the four SB. Well, it's randomly good against Oath too.
Yeah they'd NEVER do that. To them there is no reason to, and it would be a slippery slope. What about Tarmogoyf? Should they be proxied? They cost more than some reserved list cards.
I feel you, but they'd never go for that. Legacy would have to do what Vintage has done and run their own non-sanctioned events.
Why can't wizards just allow people to proxy their manabase in sanctioned tournaments?
No-Reserve-List-Legacy doesn't really seem like much of a solution, it just seems like a slightly modified version of the same problems as reprinting the Reserve List cards; instead of increasing supply, you're decreasing demand but the end result will be the same: the cards will lose value. I suppose there's less chance of legal action against WotC, since they never promised not to ban all of the cards but the flip-side is that you run a much greater risk of alienating current Legacy players, since you've not only devalued their collection, but also made a massive change to a format they like.
The most obvious solution to the growth of Legacy and Vintage would seem to simply be MTGO, but, for whatever reason, WotC appears to be incredibly reluctant to support the formats properly online.
In case anyone is wondering, the One With Nothings are the Commander Prize Pack card, Magus of the Wheel. Because wheel of fortune at instant speed on a mana-efficient body is kinda good.
Toodlebye, Scapeshift. You had your moment in the sun, but stay in the sun too long and you get Icarus'd.