The thing is, if you knowingly bring a deck that is going to be perceived as boring by most casual players then you must expect quitters (and griefers). On the plus side, at least affinity has a fast clock, I get worse feeling of dread when I meet sloooooooow control decks like mbc and esper blink in the cas room.
Well as I said, I did play during the days of "affinity." Yes, it can bring back bad memories, but that's no reason to hate on it today.
As for your statement about WOTC banning "large chunks" of the deck (using the world's deck posted here):
Block: Yes, lage chunks of it were banned in block. The largest chunk being the lands. That was done, as explained by the DCI, because to just ban Discple and Ravager would not address the issue of KCI and Second Sunrise.
Standard: The same cards in block were banned in standard for exactly the same reasons.
Extended: Aether Vile and Skullclamp were not banned because of affinity. They were banned because they were in over 80% of decks. Disciple of the Vault is not a large chunk of the affinity deck.
Legacy: no part of the affinity deck is banned in legacy. Skullclamp is banned, but, again, according to the DCI that was because it was showing up in too many decks and was overpowered (see Elfclamp).
I had to check these bannings from memory as WOTC is blocked here at work. However, I believe I am correct on all of these.
You are correct there, in that, as I mentioned in the article, having mutliple copies of Enforcer or Frogmite in hand can cause real problems. If there is any real arguement to make about the "brokeness" of the mechanic it comes from the placing of it on two colorless creatures. I think that would be the major mistake WOTC made. Affinity seems to be more balanced and less broken when there is a colored mana cost to be paid, ie Thoughtcast, Somber Hoverguard... Blinkmoth Infusion. I think if WOTC could do Mirrodin over, I bet they would add a colored cost to Frogmite and Enforcer. I say this because that would avoide things like this, which I have both seen and done in Pauper. p.s. I play affinity in pauper.
Turn 1: Lotus Petal, Artifact land
Turn 2: Artifact Land, tap 1 for Frogmite, play second Frogmite FREE, play third Frogmite FREE, tap 1 Myr Enforcer.
That's a pretty good sign my opponent is about to lose. Especially when I play a turn 3 cranial plating. But this is understanding that I had a perfect hand that contained multiples of the best cards in my deck. The odds are low on that. But I do see your point. However, I think we should look at the norms and not the extremes.
Unless you played competitive Standard back in the bad old days, you cannot understand just how sick everyone was of Affinity. In tournaments and playtesting, competitive players played thousands and thousands of games against Affinity.
Seeing someone play artifact lands into Frogmite today is like having had years of severe migraines, and finally having recovered - then having the feeling of one starting again. Maybe it won't be a full-on migraine, but why would you even want to chance it.
Wizards banned large chunks of the Affinity engine in Block, Standard, Extended and Legacy for a reason.
So full of errors and misinformation. Every Legacy staple from Tempest and Mirage block is readily available online if you actually look. And the VAST majority of them are much cheaper than the paper price to boot. Additionally, do a quick check on Star City and you will see that about half the Tempest block staples are actually out of stock in paper.
P.S. Supernova has 5 Survivals right now, and its price is dropping. It was 40+ only last month.
That's just the way the casual room rolls though. It happens whenever you play a card that's seen tournament success. I can't tell you how many times opponents have conceded to me casting gifts ungiven. If they'd just let it resolve, then the resulting pile (involving toshiro umezawa and strangling soot) would probably not seem all that threatening. Ah well.
Personally, i won't concede to affinity until they actually do the standard broken affinity things (i.e. when i've lost the game anyway), as you never know what's going to be in there!
http://jamuraa.com/pure/deck_new.php here is the deck thingee you were talking about. Druids do have some strong cards. The really good ones run a couple tickets though.
A couple comments about the card:
- The frame is pretty wacky looking (I've played with those weird orientations in MSE myself so I get it but really it doesn't look right.)
- Nice art image, HOWEVER. The negative space in the background really detracts from the look. It is too bad you couldn't super impose it on a scene. (Yes I know that is a pain in the rear.)
- The symbol does not look like the symbol styles wotc uses. You DID use MSE right?
- Flavor text: is and how should un-italicized for emphasis.
- power level: 5 converted mana cost in 3 colors no less is a lot. You get a lot for that cost. 4/3 Body is OK...(why doesn't it have flying? The picture looks like its flying.) But the ability itself seems a bit too powerful and odd. It should regenerate or be indestructible depending on how you want to flavor it. Regeneration taps it, indestructible doesn't.
- Card creation is fun. We should all do it more often.
Keep on writing. It may take time for you to find your "voice" as someone once told me. This is ok. We learn through endeavor.
In pauper, if you see a turn 2 frogmite, and if you can't kill it right there, and if you're playing a deck that needs to win by combat damage, then conceding is a reasonable response. You argue that affinity is not broken, but the reality is that unless I kill that frogmite now I am going to lose, because the affinity deck is just going to spew out cards too fast.
In a tournament context affinity is fine because you take it into account when you select your deck. In casual you are very unlikely to be prepared for it.
Also, for every rogue deck that isn't affinity which drops a t2 frogmite, there are 99 actual affinity decks that do that. I can't distinguish you from affinity. And I think that's the problem, I don't mind losing to something new and interesting, but I have lost to the speed of affinity decks so many times that I can't bring any enthusiasm to the experience any longer.
i have an old deck i like to play once in a great idea. not that great of a deck, but it often works for me and it's always a blast to play when things are running smoothly.
it's a soulscour/memnarch/platinum angel deck. . .aims to hit soulscour (7WWW) by turn 5, and it's actualy able to get there quite a bit.
so i run nothing but artifact lands, and i also run thoughtcast. i play NOTHING else with the word affinity, or anything else that even remotely goes with affinity decks (well i do run thirst for knowledge).
yet i can't tell you how many games people have conceded the second i cast thoughtcast. . .usually leaving some snide remark on how i'm a loser for playing a tourney deck in the casual room. . .or how stupid i am for playing broken cards.
lol makes me chuckle every time. . .i don't get bent out of shape over it. . .hehe i guess running a deck that aims to destroy everything on your opponent's board while walking away unscathed, then bringing out a memnarch to steal any lands they play. . .you gotta have tough skin.
but i do relate so much to this article. . .so many people see artifact lands, and ANY card with the word "affinity" on it, and they automatically think "broken".
Counter-top is a legacy level successful deck. It does not belong at the kitchen table or in the casual room online. It isn't interactive; it doesn't let the opponent play their game. It isn't fun for the other person, and is also extremely strong.
If you are writing casual articles, please steer clear of tourney-level combos. Sure you'll get a 80%+ wins, there's a reason the combo top 8's in real life legacy events.
thanks for the response, everyone is allowed their opinion on casual, but I think you've put it well there is a lot of focus on that combination, but there is more to the deck then that and if you read the reports CounterTop was pretty much useless and the few counters I got from it were without the Top.. so just Counterbalance shouldn't be used in casual??
i think next week may be pride....otherwise i like the budget version except for the mycoid shepherd....i may throw in some random other fatties...inkwell leviathan sounds fun
I just built an Extended deck off the top of my head with a unique theme that keeps my opponent from playing his game. What do you expect? I should just let my opponent run me over? I want to play a 7 mana legend! If I don't play my best black and red disruptive spells then I'll never live to see that turn 7. Your average and obvious casual solider/elf/goblin tribal deck still goldfishes on turn 4.
I think you're just looking at Counterbalance + Top and freaking out because it's a programmed response. Like in a "OMG CounterTop is banned in casual because it just is" sort of way. CounterTop is good in Legacy because every card in everyone's deck costs 0, 1, or 2 mana. But in the casual room CounterTop is much weaker because everyone plays with cards that have cmc 3 and greater. Try it!
But regardless of how strong CounterTop proves to be in the casual room, look at the deck as a whole, not one combo. I could put Tendrils of Agony in a mono-black deck with 4x Dark Rituals and that would be totally fine as long as the rest of the deck contained Sorceress Queen, Icy Manipulator + Royal Assassin, etc. It would be just like one of my Revised-Ice age era decks, actually, with the 2x Drain Life replaced by 2x Tendrils. And yeah, once in a while I'll do the final 6 damage with Ritual -> Ritual -> Tendrils, but that's Magic. It's not like my black deck will ever Tendrils for 20, and CounterTop is not at all a lock in the casual room.
For the chronatog deck, why not just add Angel's Grace and all the 0-mana you-lose-the-game-if-you-don't-pay cards? I'm talking of course about the Pacts. Turn one plains, keep skipping turns in your opponent's turn, answer anything he plays with FoW, pact of negation/slaught pact, eventually you get four titans, clear the way swing for 16 and a couple soul spikes for the win!
You guys immediately dismissed the earlier comment as trolling, but i agree with anon that countertop has no business in the casual room. regardless of whether the deck is casual or not, playing with combos like that makes people quit. Whats the point? It would be better if you had just made a good countertop deck and gone into tourney practice room.
lol thanks for the comment and I will say one thing on my behalf, it's one article where the theme was blue and thusly (sp?) translated into making other players blue.. the color really has strength in these irritating effects and that cannot be helped, as I said I tried some other things out that didn't work well at all and I wouldn't want to be showing a deck that went 10+ losses
Aside from the trolling Anon has a point. I mean your fan base is what? In the millions? At least half of those are sharks who love to beat on defenseless johnnies and timmies for the fun of it. Also how can you dare play in casual with a deck everyone is going to want to netdeck? I mean seriously, save the innovation for the PT. AMIRIGHT? :p Nice article btw. Oh and check out the hand painted sign at the entrance to the site. It says "Don't Feed the Trolls!"
The thing is, if you knowingly bring a deck that is going to be perceived as boring by most casual players then you must expect quitters (and griefers). On the plus side, at least affinity has a fast clock, I get worse feeling of dread when I meet sloooooooow control decks like mbc and esper blink in the cas room.
Well as I said, I did play during the days of "affinity." Yes, it can bring back bad memories, but that's no reason to hate on it today.
As for your statement about WOTC banning "large chunks" of the deck (using the world's deck posted here):
Block: Yes, lage chunks of it were banned in block. The largest chunk being the lands. That was done, as explained by the DCI, because to just ban Discple and Ravager would not address the issue of KCI and Second Sunrise.
Standard: The same cards in block were banned in standard for exactly the same reasons.
Extended: Aether Vile and Skullclamp were not banned because of affinity. They were banned because they were in over 80% of decks. Disciple of the Vault is not a large chunk of the affinity deck.
Legacy: no part of the affinity deck is banned in legacy. Skullclamp is banned, but, again, according to the DCI that was because it was showing up in too many decks and was overpowered (see Elfclamp).
I had to check these bannings from memory as WOTC is blocked here at work. However, I believe I am correct on all of these.
You are correct there, in that, as I mentioned in the article, having mutliple copies of Enforcer or Frogmite in hand can cause real problems. If there is any real arguement to make about the "brokeness" of the mechanic it comes from the placing of it on two colorless creatures. I think that would be the major mistake WOTC made. Affinity seems to be more balanced and less broken when there is a colored mana cost to be paid, ie Thoughtcast, Somber Hoverguard... Blinkmoth Infusion. I think if WOTC could do Mirrodin over, I bet they would add a colored cost to Frogmite and Enforcer. I say this because that would avoide things like this, which I have both seen and done in Pauper. p.s. I play affinity in pauper.
Turn 1: Lotus Petal, Artifact land
Turn 2: Artifact Land, tap 1 for Frogmite, play second Frogmite FREE, play third Frogmite FREE, tap 1 Myr Enforcer.
That's a pretty good sign my opponent is about to lose. Especially when I play a turn 3 cranial plating. But this is understanding that I had a perfect hand that contained multiples of the best cards in my deck. The odds are low on that. But I do see your point. However, I think we should look at the norms and not the extremes.
Unless you played competitive Standard back in the bad old days, you cannot understand just how sick everyone was of Affinity. In tournaments and playtesting, competitive players played thousands and thousands of games against Affinity.
Seeing someone play artifact lands into Frogmite today is like having had years of severe migraines, and finally having recovered - then having the feeling of one starting again. Maybe it won't be a full-on migraine, but why would you even want to chance it.
Wizards banned large chunks of the Affinity engine in Block, Standard, Extended and Legacy for a reason.
So full of errors and misinformation. Every Legacy staple from Tempest and Mirage block is readily available online if you actually look. And the VAST majority of them are much cheaper than the paper price to boot. Additionally, do a quick check on Star City and you will see that about half the Tempest block staples are actually out of stock in paper.
P.S. Supernova has 5 Survivals right now, and its price is dropping. It was 40+ only last month.
Stop spreading lies.
Why mention Oath if this is Legacy? Just curious.
That's just the way the casual room rolls though. It happens whenever you play a card that's seen tournament success. I can't tell you how many times opponents have conceded to me casting gifts ungiven. If they'd just let it resolve, then the resulting pile (involving toshiro umezawa and strangling soot) would probably not seem all that threatening. Ah well.
Personally, i won't concede to affinity until they actually do the standard broken affinity things (i.e. when i've lost the game anyway), as you never know what's going to be in there!
http://jamuraa.com/pure/deck_new.php here is the deck thingee you were talking about. Druids do have some strong cards. The really good ones run a couple tickets though.
A couple comments about the card:
- The frame is pretty wacky looking (I've played with those weird orientations in MSE myself so I get it but really it doesn't look right.)
- Nice art image, HOWEVER. The negative space in the background really detracts from the look. It is too bad you couldn't super impose it on a scene. (Yes I know that is a pain in the rear.)
- The symbol does not look like the symbol styles wotc uses. You DID use MSE right?
- Flavor text: is and how should un-italicized for emphasis.
- power level: 5 converted mana cost in 3 colors no less is a lot. You get a lot for that cost. 4/3 Body is OK...(why doesn't it have flying? The picture looks like its flying.) But the ability itself seems a bit too powerful and odd. It should regenerate or be indestructible depending on how you want to flavor it. Regeneration taps it, indestructible doesn't.
- Card creation is fun. We should all do it more often.
Keep on writing. It may take time for you to find your "voice" as someone once told me. This is ok. We learn through endeavor.
In pauper, if you see a turn 2 frogmite, and if you can't kill it right there, and if you're playing a deck that needs to win by combat damage, then conceding is a reasonable response. You argue that affinity is not broken, but the reality is that unless I kill that frogmite now I am going to lose, because the affinity deck is just going to spew out cards too fast.
In a tournament context affinity is fine because you take it into account when you select your deck. In casual you are very unlikely to be prepared for it.
Also, for every rogue deck that isn't affinity which drops a t2 frogmite, there are 99 actual affinity decks that do that. I can't distinguish you from affinity. And I think that's the problem, I don't mind losing to something new and interesting, but I have lost to the speed of affinity decks so many times that I can't bring any enthusiasm to the experience any longer.
it also helps that your opps were retarded
actually they have been running two more 64 players just after downtime last week and this week.
opening jaces like a madman atm
i have an old deck i like to play once in a great idea. not that great of a deck, but it often works for me and it's always a blast to play when things are running smoothly.
it's a soulscour/memnarch/platinum angel deck. . .aims to hit soulscour (7WWW) by turn 5, and it's actualy able to get there quite a bit.
so i run nothing but artifact lands, and i also run thoughtcast. i play NOTHING else with the word affinity, or anything else that even remotely goes with affinity decks (well i do run thirst for knowledge).
yet i can't tell you how many games people have conceded the second i cast thoughtcast. . .usually leaving some snide remark on how i'm a loser for playing a tourney deck in the casual room. . .or how stupid i am for playing broken cards.
lol makes me chuckle every time. . .i don't get bent out of shape over it. . .hehe i guess running a deck that aims to destroy everything on your opponent's board while walking away unscathed, then bringing out a memnarch to steal any lands they play. . .you gotta have tough skin.
but i do relate so much to this article. . .so many people see artifact lands, and ANY card with the word "affinity" on it, and they automatically think "broken".
I especially like the part where your opponent says "You should play cards that aren’t banned." Lol?
I'm not sure that the template on the card is correct... or can you just Stifle his second ability to make it stick around forever?
im calling the waaaaaaambulance
Counter-top is a legacy level successful deck. It does not belong at the kitchen table or in the casual room online. It isn't interactive; it doesn't let the opponent play their game. It isn't fun for the other person, and is also extremely strong.
If you are writing casual articles, please steer clear of tourney-level combos. Sure you'll get a 80%+ wins, there's a reason the combo top 8's in real life legacy events.
At least the mill deck was sort of interesting.
thanks for the response, everyone is allowed their opinion on casual, but I think you've put it well there is a lot of focus on that combination, but there is more to the deck then that and if you read the reports CounterTop was pretty much useless and the few counters I got from it were without the Top.. so just Counterbalance shouldn't be used in casual??
i think next week may be pride....otherwise i like the budget version except for the mycoid shepherd....i may throw in some random other fatties...inkwell leviathan sounds fun
4x Duress
4x Doom Blade
3x Blightning
3x Damnation
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Blood Moon
...
3x Rakdos Pit Dragon
2x Manabarbs
2x Kaeverek the Merciless (fancy Manabarbs!)
I just built an Extended deck off the top of my head with a unique theme that keeps my opponent from playing his game. What do you expect? I should just let my opponent run me over? I want to play a 7 mana legend! If I don't play my best black and red disruptive spells then I'll never live to see that turn 7. Your average and obvious casual solider/elf/goblin tribal deck still goldfishes on turn 4.
I think you're just looking at Counterbalance + Top and freaking out because it's a programmed response. Like in a "OMG CounterTop is banned in casual because it just is" sort of way. CounterTop is good in Legacy because every card in everyone's deck costs 0, 1, or 2 mana. But in the casual room CounterTop is much weaker because everyone plays with cards that have cmc 3 and greater. Try it!
But regardless of how strong CounterTop proves to be in the casual room, look at the deck as a whole, not one combo. I could put Tendrils of Agony in a mono-black deck with 4x Dark Rituals and that would be totally fine as long as the rest of the deck contained Sorceress Queen, Icy Manipulator + Royal Assassin, etc. It would be just like one of my Revised-Ice age era decks, actually, with the 2x Drain Life replaced by 2x Tendrils. And yeah, once in a while I'll do the final 6 damage with Ritual -> Ritual -> Tendrils, but that's Magic. It's not like my black deck will ever Tendrils for 20, and CounterTop is not at all a lock in the casual room.
For the chronatog deck, why not just add Angel's Grace and all the 0-mana you-lose-the-game-if-you-don't-pay cards? I'm talking of course about the Pacts. Turn one plains, keep skipping turns in your opponent's turn, answer anything he plays with FoW, pact of negation/slaught pact, eventually you get four titans, clear the way swing for 16 and a couple soul spikes for the win!
You guys immediately dismissed the earlier comment as trolling, but i agree with anon that countertop has no business in the casual room. regardless of whether the deck is casual or not, playing with combos like that makes people quit. Whats the point? It would be better if you had just made a good countertop deck and gone into tourney practice room.
lol thanks for the comment and I will say one thing on my behalf, it's one article where the theme was blue and thusly (sp?) translated into making other players blue.. the color really has strength in these irritating effects and that cannot be helped, as I said I tried some other things out that didn't work well at all and I wouldn't want to be showing a deck that went 10+ losses
Aside from the trolling Anon has a point. I mean your fan base is what? In the millions? At least half of those are sharks who love to beat on defenseless johnnies and timmies for the fun of it. Also how can you dare play in casual with a deck everyone is going to want to netdeck? I mean seriously, save the innovation for the PT. AMIRIGHT? :p Nice article btw. Oh and check out the hand painted sign at the entrance to the site. It says "
Don'tFeed the Trolls!"lol hi 'thanks' for the trolling, but I don't think that I'm going to reopen the debate over what is casual