Dam you early submitting and no editing ability...
I was going to say something about Admonition Angel for UW control. May even be a good card for mono-white control as it gives you an in-color answer to Valkuut.
Basically all of the Vamps decks that do well have main deck Mind Sludge. Most seem to run 3 on average. Also, the WW Kor decks seem to run 4 Adv Gear and 4 Machete. May want to update your "standard" decklists.
I cant see the red weenie deck doing well with Kor Firewalker post Worldwake. Especially since the Kor decks and the UW control decks get some great cards. Demolish has to be terrible in that deck, though, doesnt it? The red deck wins versus Valkuut by outracing Valkuut coming online...but now your going to draw a LD spell that will gum up your hand and never has the potential to do damage like the Goblin did? Seems bad.
For the Kor deck there may be a few additional things to consider:
-With Hada Freeblade you could go with an ally sub-theme with Kazandu Blademaster. Join The Ranks may be techy with those two.
-Marshal's Anthem seems like an auto-include of at least one-of
-Kitesail Apprentice should at least be looked at as a replacement for Kor Aeronaut
@anon#5 - How is it your least desirable one drop? It's a 2/2 with evasion and requires a double block of two other flyers, one of them at least having 3 toughness. That's pretty good. Name me another 1drop that will be doing that much consistent damage in the game. Akrasan Squire comes to mind, and yes he starts swinging turn 2 instead of turn 4, but you can bet he'll be pushing out less damage overall because he'll soon be chump blocked or you'll have more than one creature that you want to attack with. You could argue that it buys the control player two more turns of no damage to draw an answer and you'd be right, but if you don't have a horrible hand then you should be dropping other threats that would gain his attention anyway. The creature itself is much stronger than most other 1cc choices.
I disagree that there are much better options at 1cc. And I stress 1cc because you want speed to beat control. Also, yes, it is in fact competing with amrou scout and the riftwatcher. You're correct that they are merely meta tools and have no reason to be played currently. That's exactly why I cite the harrier and knight as replacements. If there are much better options could you suggest some? I was looking at the 1cc spot and the only other cards that come to mind are Gelid Shackles, Soul Warden, Mosquito Guard, and Soltari Foot-Soldier, and I'm stretching it. Honestly if I didn't like the Knight or Harrier I'd probably pick up the 2/2 flanker for 2cc, Benalish Cavalry.
I agree that white is a deep and flexible color, but I respectfully disagree with your analysis on the Knight until you suggest an alternative. And for the record, the Naya Cloak list got extremely lucky to do as well as it did and I doubt that success will be replicated in the future unless they keep dodging UBcontrol.
@anon#6 - That suggestion sounds awesome. I'll have to try it out, probably 2of in the maindeck. Thanks for the advice, this might really boost the deck's power.
"2. Come up with restricted builds or theme builds for the week. Such as all creatures, only blue or white cards, tribal singleton, etc... Being a casual format it wouldn't be hard to enforce, if someone doesn't follow the build, their opponent should PM you. Three or four weeks worth of builds could be posted in this forum so players would have plenty of advance notice."
Thats the best idea I've seen yet, I love making fun new decks with restrictions.
"Wizards could seperate formats from deck restrictions - i.e., Singleton, Tribal, and Prismatic would all be toggle filters for the Standard, Extended, and Classic Formats"
Now that's something I've been waiting a long time to see happen.
I agree with this - but Tribal Apocalpyse has already gone down the road of special format rules with the additional banned cards.
In the end, Tribal players need Wizards of the Coast to step up and fix the format in the client with a broader banned or restricted list or changing the format to extended. Or better yet, Wizards could seperate formats from deck restrictions - i.e., Singleton, Tribal, and Prismatic would all be toggle filters for the Standard, Extended, and Classic Formats.
I don’t find combo very fun. Whenever I make a combo deck I always end up playing with it until I get it to go off once or twice, then get bored and put it away. I also think that degenerate combos aren’t good for the metagame, especially in a format where you can have half of your combo waiting in the Commander Zone.
I think trying to run your own version of the format is only asking for trouble with people not understanding the deck building rules or saying they didnt understand when caught out. It makes the hosts work a nightmare.
I'd find playing against wrath effects every other turn a tad boring to be honest or playing them that way.
Being able to wrath your way to a win doesnt mean its a good deck by a long way just very passive.
If I was playing a similar deck I'd include a lot of the cards Iceage mentioned and also Mutavault and Mishra's Factory to get some beats in after a wrath.
a bunch of wraths does not make a good deck. I would be amazed if you could win more than %50 with your deck. While it has a ton of money cards and wraths, it has almost no way of breaking up combos, and really nothing to make it shine. The constant wraths are a great way to become a target too.
Interesting deck. I like the fact that it doesn't go out of its way to play the more "broken" cards in the format. I especially like the inclusion of Guided Passage and Tawnos Coffin. However, you had to know that if you said you were playing the "best" deck in the format, there would be those that would disagree. Your deck avoids the infinite Time Stretch recursions that a lot of decks try to pack in for things that are more "fair." Obviously if you are playing the best deck, you are going to have some of those really hated combos/counters/mass land destruction. But you try for more of a waiting in the weeds approach.
If I’m in a position to cast Time Stretch and win the game, I’m in a position to win the game without Time Stretch. The endgame we’re talking about here is downright leisurely.
I commented on Wake and Mana Reflection here:
“The permanents you list (outside of Acidic Slime, which IS better than Wickerbough Elder) don’t fit the deck because they a)attract too much attention, b)die too easily – to my own strategy.”
Let me add that they’re unnecessary in spite of painting huge targets on my back. The function of both is already handled in the deck’s early to midgame strategy of ramping. But I do it while staying off the radar instead of dropping a fragile permanent that says “hurt me because I’m doing something busted next turn.” I prefer to let only my hand-size telegraph that.
Sorin’s second ability is the only one that’s applicable, and you can get the same effect on an easier-to-recur body with Magister Sphinx. None of Garruk’s abilities add anything to the deck: I’d don’t need to untap lands, I don’t need or want a creature I’ll just Wrath next turn, and I don’t have a bunch of dudes to Overrun. Elspeth is probably the worst PW I could play since she draws more heat than practically any other card imaginable (by people who’ve played against her before). Her big ability is even contrary to my basic gameplan – the last thing I want is an indestructible Mulldrifter! Please kill it!
Obviously it has to be more subtle that that. Using Wrath effects is a “democratic” way to keep threats at bay WITHOUT causing the gang up. Since I’m not scaring people by laying threats and by cleaning their other two opponents’ threats, you stay off the radar far longer than you would otherwise. And when everything’s under control, you just win. You don’t have to set anything up (like with the cards you suggested) because you’re already there.
Alright didn't want to reply again but you complain that some cards make you a target so you don't want them. Then you say this deck dominates in 3v1 situations? If so make them hate you then smash them.
You're reply is hardly shocking based on this article. Was my win % a number based on statistical analysis? No. Is it my best guess? Yes. This is why I said "I'd say" and gave a range. But thank you for your silly and immature reply.
Time Stretch doesn't make the other people angry, it wins the game. In this deck it wouldn't be hard to cast it 2-3 times in a row, again wins the game. Saying Time Warp just draws a card is silly. It draws a card, gives you an extra attack step, gives you a land drop, and if you have more than five lands generates you extra mana! If you're going to exclude the strongest spell in EDH at least mention why.
If you want to win 70% of EDH games without a combo deck you need to do things that can make you a target. Ever play Burgeoning on turn one? Sure everyone wants to kill you but when you untap with 4 mana on turn two there is not a lot they and do about it.
No comments on Wake or Mana Reflection? Feel free to look them up if they're new to you. They go pretty well with Planar Portal and Legacy Weapon. While on that subject have you considered Seedborn Muse? Again very good with those two spells. You said something smart when you said mana is very important but the deck does not follow through on that. I'm also not sure why you're not running Thawing Glaciers in addition to the two legendary lands already mentioned. Reliquary Tower is also worth it even in a five color deck.
I hope your claim of NEVER seeing a planeswalker stick around more than two turns is hyperbole. You realize in this deck you could play a wrath and a planeswalker on the same turn? That sure makes them live longer. How about Garruk, untap two lands, Winds of Rath? Or maybe Damnation, Elspeth, make a guy. Also planeswalkers are a great way to make Time Warp better than "draw a card".
As far as what planeswalkers fit have you seen Sorin in Commander? He is bonkers! Sure he is triple black but you've clearly planned on BBB for other cards.
I didn't post my comment to try and bash you. I posted it to try and improve both your deck and future articles. Clearly you're not interested in improving "the best control deck" in commander so I'll leave to you.
Yes, I've played Garza Zol before. The Haste is really key there -- and the reason why I hate to see her across the table from me. As a Commander, Garza plays a lot like the Horde in that she gets in there for quick damage and shrugs off sorcery-speed removal. She’s also better at getting that 21 points of commander damage.
I agree the inevitably a violator will be caught, but it is not a guarantee that a violator will be caught every match or even during a three round tournament. Also, the degree by which someone violates the rule will impact how likely they are to be caught. If someone runs a singleton deck except for a second Day of Judgement and a second Wrath of God, it may be very hard to detect unless you search their deck, but doubly your 4cc global destruction spells would significantly change the outcome of a tournament, but be significantly harder to catch than if a player ran 4 of each.
I guess I don't view it as verifiable if it cannot be evaluated every single game, but do agree that wrongdoers would eventually be caught.
Now I disagree with your statement about verifiability of singleton. The reason people won't cheat with this is because it is too easy to be caught and DQed. There are a ton of cards/effects that let you spy out your opponent's decks. You can bet in a singleton format people will be running some of those. You won't run into it every game but often enough that duplication would be a serious error.
It is not a phenomenon new to mtgo or magic or gaming. Spikes will be spikes. I am a spike. Just more Johnny than your average spike and I don't have a need to win "right now!" all the time. My ego has other outlets.
Dam you early submitting and no editing ability...
I was going to say something about Admonition Angel for UW control. May even be a good card for mono-white control as it gives you an in-color answer to Valkuut.
Basically all of the Vamps decks that do well have main deck Mind Sludge. Most seem to run 3 on average. Also, the WW Kor decks seem to run 4 Adv Gear and 4 Machete. May want to update your "standard" decklists.
I cant see the red weenie deck doing well with Kor Firewalker post Worldwake. Especially since the Kor decks and the UW control decks get some great cards. Demolish has to be terrible in that deck, though, doesnt it? The red deck wins versus Valkuut by outracing Valkuut coming online...but now your going to draw a LD spell that will gum up your hand and never has the potential to do damage like the Goblin did? Seems bad.
For the Kor deck there may be a few additional things to consider:
-With Hada Freeblade you could go with an ally sub-theme with Kazandu Blademaster. Join The Ranks may be techy with those two.
-Marshal's Anthem seems like an auto-include of at least one-of
-Kitesail Apprentice should at least be looked at as a replacement for Kor Aeronaut
For the UW Control deck I'd think
-M
@anon#5 - How is it your least desirable one drop? It's a 2/2 with evasion and requires a double block of two other flyers, one of them at least having 3 toughness. That's pretty good. Name me another 1drop that will be doing that much consistent damage in the game. Akrasan Squire comes to mind, and yes he starts swinging turn 2 instead of turn 4, but you can bet he'll be pushing out less damage overall because he'll soon be chump blocked or you'll have more than one creature that you want to attack with. You could argue that it buys the control player two more turns of no damage to draw an answer and you'd be right, but if you don't have a horrible hand then you should be dropping other threats that would gain his attention anyway. The creature itself is much stronger than most other 1cc choices.
I disagree that there are much better options at 1cc. And I stress 1cc because you want speed to beat control. Also, yes, it is in fact competing with amrou scout and the riftwatcher. You're correct that they are merely meta tools and have no reason to be played currently. That's exactly why I cite the harrier and knight as replacements. If there are much better options could you suggest some? I was looking at the 1cc spot and the only other cards that come to mind are Gelid Shackles, Soul Warden, Mosquito Guard, and Soltari Foot-Soldier, and I'm stretching it. Honestly if I didn't like the Knight or Harrier I'd probably pick up the 2/2 flanker for 2cc, Benalish Cavalry.
I agree that white is a deep and flexible color, but I respectfully disagree with your analysis on the Knight until you suggest an alternative. And for the record, the Naya Cloak list got extremely lucky to do as well as it did and I doubt that success will be replicated in the future unless they keep dodging UBcontrol.
@anon#6 - That suggestion sounds awesome. I'll have to try it out, probably 2of in the maindeck. Thanks for the advice, this might really boost the deck's power.
"2. Come up with restricted builds or theme builds for the week. Such as all creatures, only blue or white cards, tribal singleton, etc... Being a casual format it wouldn't be hard to enforce, if someone doesn't follow the build, their opponent should PM you. Three or four weeks worth of builds could be posted in this forum so players would have plenty of advance notice."
Thats the best idea I've seen yet, I love making fun new decks with restrictions.
"Wizards could seperate formats from deck restrictions - i.e., Singleton, Tribal, and Prismatic would all be toggle filters for the Standard, Extended, and Classic Formats"
Now that's something I've been waiting a long time to see happen.
I agree with this - but Tribal Apocalpyse has already gone down the road of special format rules with the additional banned cards.
In the end, Tribal players need Wizards of the Coast to step up and fix the format in the client with a broader banned or restricted list or changing the format to extended. Or better yet, Wizards could seperate formats from deck restrictions - i.e., Singleton, Tribal, and Prismatic would all be toggle filters for the Standard, Extended, and Classic Formats.
I don’t find combo very fun. Whenever I make a combo deck I always end up playing with it until I get it to go off once or twice, then get bored and put it away. I also think that degenerate combos aren’t good for the metagame, especially in a format where you can have half of your combo waiting in the Commander Zone.
Nice.
Wow. That is actually very interesting.
They can target me all they want with the creatures in their graveyards...
I think trying to run your own version of the format is only asking for trouble with people not understanding the deck building rules or saying they didnt understand when caught out. It makes the hosts work a nightmare.
This seems to fit the commander format on Modo.
Pick a general with access to sweepers.
Put every conceivable sweeper in your deck.
Play like 4-5 recurrable threats.
Decks like these make me less likely to join a commander queue.
I'd find playing against wrath effects every other turn a tad boring to be honest or playing them that way.
Being able to wrath your way to a win doesnt mean its a good deck by a long way just very passive.
If I was playing a similar deck I'd include a lot of the cards Iceage mentioned and also Mutavault and Mishra's Factory to get some beats in after a wrath.
a bunch of wraths does not make a good deck. I would be amazed if you could win more than %50 with your deck. While it has a ton of money cards and wraths, it has almost no way of breaking up combos, and really nothing to make it shine. The constant wraths are a great way to become a target too.
Interesting deck. I like the fact that it doesn't go out of its way to play the more "broken" cards in the format. I especially like the inclusion of Guided Passage and Tawnos Coffin. However, you had to know that if you said you were playing the "best" deck in the format, there would be those that would disagree. Your deck avoids the infinite Time Stretch recursions that a lot of decks try to pack in for things that are more "fair." Obviously if you are playing the best deck, you are going to have some of those really hated combos/counters/mass land destruction. But you try for more of a waiting in the weeds approach.
Why so serious? I didn’t mean to make you sad.
If I’m in a position to cast Time Stretch and win the game, I’m in a position to win the game without Time Stretch. The endgame we’re talking about here is downright leisurely.
I commented on Wake and Mana Reflection here:
“The permanents you list (outside of Acidic Slime, which IS better than Wickerbough Elder) don’t fit the deck because they a)attract too much attention, b)die too easily – to my own strategy.”
Let me add that they’re unnecessary in spite of painting huge targets on my back. The function of both is already handled in the deck’s early to midgame strategy of ramping. But I do it while staying off the radar instead of dropping a fragile permanent that says “hurt me because I’m doing something busted next turn.” I prefer to let only my hand-size telegraph that.
Sorin’s second ability is the only one that’s applicable, and you can get the same effect on an easier-to-recur body with Magister Sphinx. None of Garruk’s abilities add anything to the deck: I’d don’t need to untap lands, I don’t need or want a creature I’ll just Wrath next turn, and I don’t have a bunch of dudes to Overrun. Elspeth is probably the worst PW I could play since she draws more heat than practically any other card imaginable (by people who’ve played against her before). Her big ability is even contrary to my basic gameplan – the last thing I want is an indestructible Mulldrifter! Please kill it!
Obviously it has to be more subtle that that. Using Wrath effects is a “democratic” way to keep threats at bay WITHOUT causing the gang up. Since I’m not scaring people by laying threats and by cleaning their other two opponents’ threats, you stay off the radar far longer than you would otherwise. And when everything’s under control, you just win. You don’t have to set anything up (like with the cards you suggested) because you’re already there.
Alright didn't want to reply again but you complain that some cards make you a target so you don't want them. Then you say this deck dominates in 3v1 situations? If so make them hate you then smash them.
You're reply is hardly shocking based on this article. Was my win % a number based on statistical analysis? No. Is it my best guess? Yes. This is why I said "I'd say" and gave a range. But thank you for your silly and immature reply.
Time Stretch doesn't make the other people angry, it wins the game. In this deck it wouldn't be hard to cast it 2-3 times in a row, again wins the game. Saying Time Warp just draws a card is silly. It draws a card, gives you an extra attack step, gives you a land drop, and if you have more than five lands generates you extra mana! If you're going to exclude the strongest spell in EDH at least mention why.
If you want to win 70% of EDH games without a combo deck you need to do things that can make you a target. Ever play Burgeoning on turn one? Sure everyone wants to kill you but when you untap with 4 mana on turn two there is not a lot they and do about it.
No comments on Wake or Mana Reflection? Feel free to look them up if they're new to you. They go pretty well with Planar Portal and Legacy Weapon. While on that subject have you considered Seedborn Muse? Again very good with those two spells. You said something smart when you said mana is very important but the deck does not follow through on that. I'm also not sure why you're not running Thawing Glaciers in addition to the two legendary lands already mentioned. Reliquary Tower is also worth it even in a five color deck.
I hope your claim of NEVER seeing a planeswalker stick around more than two turns is hyperbole. You realize in this deck you could play a wrath and a planeswalker on the same turn? That sure makes them live longer. How about Garruk, untap two lands, Winds of Rath? Or maybe Damnation, Elspeth, make a guy. Also planeswalkers are a great way to make Time Warp better than "draw a card".
As far as what planeswalkers fit have you seen Sorin in Commander? He is bonkers! Sure he is triple black but you've clearly planned on BBB for other cards.
I didn't post my comment to try and bash you. I posted it to try and improve both your deck and future articles. Clearly you're not interested in improving "the best control deck" in commander so I'll leave to you.
Yes, I've played Garza Zol before. The Haste is really key there -- and the reason why I hate to see her across the table from me. As a Commander, Garza plays a lot like the Horde in that she gets in there for quick damage and shrugs off sorcery-speed removal. She’s also better at getting that 21 points of commander damage.
um...wraths arent time warps....
Garza Zol seems like it would be better for your deck then Ink Eyes
I agree the inevitably a violator will be caught, but it is not a guarantee that a violator will be caught every match or even during a three round tournament. Also, the degree by which someone violates the rule will impact how likely they are to be caught. If someone runs a singleton deck except for a second Day of Judgement and a second Wrath of God, it may be very hard to detect unless you search their deck, but doubly your 4cc global destruction spells would significantly change the outcome of a tournament, but be significantly harder to catch than if a player ran 4 of each.
I guess I don't view it as verifiable if it cannot be evaluated every single game, but do agree that wrongdoers would eventually be caught.
Now I disagree with your statement about verifiability of singleton. The reason people won't cheat with this is because it is too easy to be caught and DQed. There are a ton of cards/effects that let you spy out your opponent's decks. You can bet in a singleton format people will be running some of those. You won't run into it every game but often enough that duplication would be a serious error.
It is not a phenomenon new to mtgo or magic or gaming. Spikes will be spikes. I am a spike. Just more Johnny than your average spike and I don't have a need to win "right now!" all the time. My ego has other outlets.