Maybe it's just me, but is Quest for the Gravelord not good enough for your maindeck? Seems like in a more weenie style deck like your main, it would be a good inclusion.
i agree, i think the disfigure was a bit hasty. i mean, it's kinda obvious now since we have hindsight to see living tsunami, but in general it seems better to get a trade in with the ground guy if possible. would be nice if you had another dude in ur hand. if he doesn't block, then you get 2 dmg which is good and if he swings back with windrider eel - you can swing with your guys too and race...
I too have played Magic with my kids, but with mixed results. They enjoy playing and especially beating down opponents, but it is a hard draw from the computer and/or TV. I think introducing it to them earlier (mine are 11 and 12 now) is key to keeping up the interest. I haven't given up yet though. They each have made a deck with M10 cards and I will be showing them Zen/Wwk soon. I look forward to your articles every week - thank you very much.
Not sure what your thoughts are...but in Game 1 of the draft when he casts the Eel and you have 2 2/2's out and a Disfigure in hand then shouldnt you just attack and keep the Disfigure?
My play that turn is to attack with just the ground guy and pass the turn. Hes at 9 so you dont fear getting milled out. You dont want to let him trade his flyer for your flyer but you shouldnt care about trading the ground guy for his flyer and keeping Disfigure for the "stopper" guy that will most likely be cast soon.
I think that you're getting trapped by the discourse around Luminarch Ascension and Hedron Crab. You're absolutely right to lump them in the same general category, but I think the way you are thinking about both cards is a little off.
Both the Ascension and the Crab are cards that do not function like the majority of limited playables. The vast majority of cards you play in 40 card decks give you some measure of advantage which cumulatively leads to you winning the game (or at least that is the plan). The only exception to this tends to be bombs, which can win the game by themselves. The vast majority of bombs are reliable in what they do. If you drop a 7/7 creature, it WILL win you the game unless your opponent answers it or is able to win first. Luminarch Ascension and, to a lesser extent, Hedron Crab are in a slightly different category: unreliable bombs. They both have the potential to win the game by themselves (although in reality they often require a lot of support to do so). That said, the stars have to align a little bit for them to work.
Because of this, people tend to compare them to other high power level cards when they talk about them. So the question becomes "Is this card a top pick?" or "Is this card a legit bomb?" I think you are correct to suggest that the answer to both of these questions is no, and most people probably agree with you. That said, it does not mean that you should not play the card should you draft them: the real question at hand should be "Is this better than my 22nd card?"
I think often times the answer will be yes. It's not uncommon for people to run filler like pillarfield ox, hedron scrabbler, hagra diabolist with few other allies, etc. as their last card. In these cases, you're probably better off starting the Ascension main. The same can be true of the crab, even if you don't have any other milling support. Even though the situations are rare where these cards will legitimately cause you to win a game you otherwise would not have won, the same can be said for your regular batch of 22nd cards. The problem is that you EXPECT the Luminarch Ascension to win you the game while you only expect Hedron Scrabbler to trade with a 2/1 in the best case scenario. Big scrabs may do that job 90% of the time while Ascension only does its job 5% of the time, but when scrabs works the benefit you gain is tiny versus the game win that results when Ascension does its job.
Of course, any psychological benefit you get out of cards like Ascension and Crab is gravy. Players will often waste removal on crab when they shouldn't and some will make bad attacks out of fear of the ascension. When you factor this kind of effect in, these cards look a little better (although it's still not a reason to pick them aggressively).
a month is probably extreme and a lot of work
2weeks should be better as the format does swing around but it is ussally a 3 week deal. just using results of 1 week does not present enough info and if the effort to show the snap shot ( which is appreciated) is done there is a more compelling reason to use 2 weeks as that is closer to a 1 week snap shot in other more popular formats.
also dont forget "treasure hunt" with a card like that , drawing into control on a UW or a mono U would be seriously dangerous, blue makes its solid comeback in WWK , cant wait till the end of february for this! great read as always SpikeBoyM, keep slinging commons!@
Nice article again thanks for the classic info. I'd try to cover a months worth of events as the meta doesnt change as fast as other formats unless a new set has just come out.
I'm lad you guys had fun at the Pre-Re, IMHO this format is a pretty ghastly one for 2HG so I'm glad that didn't dampen your experience. I saw you guys come in as I was in the middle of a match, I wanted to say "howdy" but didn't get the chance, fortunately it sounds like you and Oliver will both be attending future pre-releases!
The idea and initiative of doing this snapshot for the classic format is great and you, sir, deserve many thanks. Unfortunately, as you pointed out, classic has few events (compared to extended, for instance). So if you plan to do so in the future (and i hope you do), it would be nice to have more data. Classic has/should have less changes than other formats.
"I pulled a planeswalker! I pulled a planeswalker!" ROFL That must have been hilarious to witness. Man I'm a Legacy player so I haven't pulled a whole lot of Zendikar/Worldwake but enough to know that pulling a Jace would be Mind Sculptingly awesome!
Just wanted to note that in a 6-round prerelease sealed flight the other week, I had a single Hedron Crab and a single Excavator ally. I secured THREE milling wins that day, with just those two cards. My deck was blue black with some removal, bounce, card draw, landwalk, lockdown via Merfolk Seastalkers, and a Vapor Snare that played oh-so-well with the Crab.
The first mill-out of the day was in a tie-breaking game against a white-something deck with a few too many defenders (the white zendikon and the defender ally). I played a turn 1 crab, a turn 2 excavator, and at least 2 more allies in the next 3 turns. I won that match with the life totals still at 20-20.
The next two mills were against my final opponent, who won the first game of our round. We were both 3-2-0 and were fighting to win 3 packs or go home empty handed -- actually we had agreed before the round that the winner would give the loser one pack, because we had been playing in a building with no heat for almost 8 hours, and going home without any prizes would be sad.
Game 2 I laid the crab down turn one, and managed to mill away all the lands my opponent needed to cast the threats in his hand. Halimar Excavator joined the party at some point, I think, and my Vapor Snare conspired with the Crab to seal the deal. The highlight of my entire day was when my opponent cried out, "That Crab should be in a crabcake!"
Game 3 was going to decide everything. I shuffled up, and politely asked my opponent to cut the deck and put the crab right back on top for me. Not wanting to take any risks, he gave the deck about 7 or 8 cuts before handing it back to me. Opening hand: Crab and Excavator, and I think 4 lands. I lol'd. Couldn't help it. And I won the final game of the day with a mill-out. (This time the opponent was mana-flooded, and each mill of mine buried creature spells, leaving him with just more lands.)
Upon receiving my prize packs, I made him pick which one he was getting. His rare wound up being a Sundial. I opened my two prize packs to find a comet storm and an Abyssal Persecutor =)
I have very little experience or knowledge with Classic. That's why I usually leave analysis of that format up to the experts such as yourself. My definition of "rogue" is a deck that have very few representatives in the data sample that I have. Granted this definition is a bit weak when I'm only looking at one week's worth of data and there aren't that many classic tournaments in a week.
The only reason I included Classic this time because I was asked to do so by you and another poster in my previous article.
I agree that a wider time range would give some more insight and provide a better view of the format. That will take a bit more time, but I can certainly work on it if it would be useful.
I generally don't like going back too far because this kind of data has a relatively short shelf life.
im not sure how into the format of classic you are, but "void sphere" is not rogue. Its dragon stompy and has been in the meta for a few years. In the future if your going to snapshot classic again I think you need a wider time frame as what you posted above is not indicative of the actual classic metagame.
Putting crab and luminarch in the same boat, very interesting. I completly agree. I feel luminarch is a terrible card to run, and I even rate a singleton hedron crab higher than it (although not by much). The only reason I feel that a single hedron crab is better than luminarch is for the rare moments where you manage to mill your opponents good cards (not for the sake of milling, but just for the sake of making your opponent groan a little). On that note, luminarch does 100% nothing on turn two where as a turn two hedron crab does perhaps 75% nothing. Hedron crab can at least do one of the following: mill relevant cards, chump, or eat a removal spell. Lets not forget though that it can also mill irrelevant cards, putting your opponent closer to relevant cards, and is thus, still terrible. If it was 0/3 though it might be sick!
It'll be a lot of fun to follow his growth in the game. i don't know how old many kids are when they first learned the game...but i was in college and so i was very competitive right out of the gate. My priority was to win day 1. Somebody starting out at a much younger age will have different priorities and it will be exciting to watch his knowledge and priorities change w/ regards to the game as he gets older. Great job guiding him along the way while letting him experiance it for himself.
Congrats on the pre-release, I'm glad you had fun with 2HG as it is the format I most wish Wizards had implemented on MTGO, it's really a blast. And by the way, I wish your kid was opening my packs, with his luck he could top-8 anywhere. If you had his packs on your pool to begin with, you most certaily would have won or at least 3-1'd.
Reading your article I couldn't help but think that Luminarch ascension is devastating in 2HG, as many games bog down all the time and it's much easier to defend, and you often have mana to spare middle to late in the game. I've noticed that on 2HG even flying combat tends to bog down, and intimidate guys don't usually mean much as you often have the right guy to block them. Landwalkers on the other hand are really relevant, as more often than not you'll have one head on the opposite team with the right land for it.
Based on the description I was hoping you'd have more discussion about Worldwake. Maybe I just want to discuss some of my ideas.
I think WU is currently the top deck in Zendikar Block, and will remain so after Worldwake.
What do you think about Vampires adding a splash color? I can see Creeping Tar Pit as a very difficult problem for W/U to deal with, and Bloodhusk Ritualist can replace Mind Sludge due to the loss of swamps. The Ritualist is also immune to Spell Pierce, can be played on turn 4, can be reused with Grim Discovery, and doesn't clog up the 5 mana slot the way Sludge/Bloodwitch/Ob Nixilis/Marsh Casualities(with Kicker) do.
I also think Arbor Elf, Leatherback, and Joraga War Caller really help out Nissa. The main question is what color will be best to splash with a Nissa deck.
And I think White Weenie gains a decent amount of high quality cards (Stoneforge Mystic) (Basilisk Collar) (Kitesail Apprentice), but it never did have a good game against W/U so I'm not sure if it's worthwhile if W/U gains in popularity.
Maybe it's just me, but is Quest for the Gravelord not good enough for your maindeck? Seems like in a more weenie style deck like your main, it would be a good inclusion.
I really enjoy these articles it must take a ton of time to put them together, but it's very appreciated
i agree, i think the disfigure was a bit hasty. i mean, it's kinda obvious now since we have hindsight to see living tsunami, but in general it seems better to get a trade in with the ground guy if possible. would be nice if you had another dude in ur hand. if he doesn't block, then you get 2 dmg which is good and if he swings back with windrider eel - you can swing with your guys too and race...
I too have played Magic with my kids, but with mixed results. They enjoy playing and especially beating down opponents, but it is a hard draw from the computer and/or TV. I think introducing it to them earlier (mine are 11 and 12 now) is key to keeping up the interest. I haven't given up yet though. They each have made a deck with M10 cards and I will be showing them Zen/Wwk soon. I look forward to your articles every week - thank you very much.
Time frame doesn't mean much to classic. I'd rather count the number of events instead. 5 events? 10 events? 20 events?
Mire's Toll anyone? -_-
Not sure what your thoughts are...but in Game 1 of the draft when he casts the Eel and you have 2 2/2's out and a Disfigure in hand then shouldnt you just attack and keep the Disfigure?
My play that turn is to attack with just the ground guy and pass the turn. Hes at 9 so you dont fear getting milled out. You dont want to let him trade his flyer for your flyer but you shouldnt care about trading the ground guy for his flyer and keeping Disfigure for the "stopper" guy that will most likely be cast soon.
-M
I think that you're getting trapped by the discourse around Luminarch Ascension and Hedron Crab. You're absolutely right to lump them in the same general category, but I think the way you are thinking about both cards is a little off.
Both the Ascension and the Crab are cards that do not function like the majority of limited playables. The vast majority of cards you play in 40 card decks give you some measure of advantage which cumulatively leads to you winning the game (or at least that is the plan). The only exception to this tends to be bombs, which can win the game by themselves. The vast majority of bombs are reliable in what they do. If you drop a 7/7 creature, it WILL win you the game unless your opponent answers it or is able to win first. Luminarch Ascension and, to a lesser extent, Hedron Crab are in a slightly different category: unreliable bombs. They both have the potential to win the game by themselves (although in reality they often require a lot of support to do so). That said, the stars have to align a little bit for them to work.
Because of this, people tend to compare them to other high power level cards when they talk about them. So the question becomes "Is this card a top pick?" or "Is this card a legit bomb?" I think you are correct to suggest that the answer to both of these questions is no, and most people probably agree with you. That said, it does not mean that you should not play the card should you draft them: the real question at hand should be "Is this better than my 22nd card?"
I think often times the answer will be yes. It's not uncommon for people to run filler like pillarfield ox, hedron scrabbler, hagra diabolist with few other allies, etc. as their last card. In these cases, you're probably better off starting the Ascension main. The same can be true of the crab, even if you don't have any other milling support. Even though the situations are rare where these cards will legitimately cause you to win a game you otherwise would not have won, the same can be said for your regular batch of 22nd cards. The problem is that you EXPECT the Luminarch Ascension to win you the game while you only expect Hedron Scrabbler to trade with a 2/1 in the best case scenario. Big scrabs may do that job 90% of the time while Ascension only does its job 5% of the time, but when scrabs works the benefit you gain is tiny versus the game win that results when Ascension does its job.
Of course, any psychological benefit you get out of cards like Ascension and Crab is gravy. Players will often waste removal on crab when they shouldn't and some will make bad attacks out of fear of the ascension. When you factor this kind of effect in, these cards look a little better (although it's still not a reason to pick them aggressively).
a month is probably extreme and a lot of work
2weeks should be better as the format does swing around but it is ussally a 3 week deal. just using results of 1 week does not present enough info and if the effort to show the snap shot ( which is appreciated) is done there is a more compelling reason to use 2 weeks as that is closer to a 1 week snap shot in other more popular formats.
So now that this deck is all over the place how many make top8?
also dont forget "treasure hunt" with a card like that , drawing into control on a UW or a mono U would be seriously dangerous, blue makes its solid comeback in WWK , cant wait till the end of february for this! great read as always SpikeBoyM, keep slinging commons!@
Nice article again thanks for the classic info. I'd try to cover a months worth of events as the meta doesnt change as fast as other formats unless a new set has just come out.
Have you missed not having Deathmarks in the SB, e.g. in the Zoo matchup you lost?
Luis
I'm lad you guys had fun at the Pre-Re, IMHO this format is a pretty ghastly one for 2HG so I'm glad that didn't dampen your experience. I saw you guys come in as I was in the middle of a match, I wanted to say "howdy" but didn't get the chance, fortunately it sounds like you and Oliver will both be attending future pre-releases!
The idea and initiative of doing this snapshot for the classic format is great and you, sir, deserve many thanks. Unfortunately, as you pointed out, classic has few events (compared to extended, for instance). So if you plan to do so in the future (and i hope you do), it would be nice to have more data. Classic has/should have less changes than other formats.
Classic deck names are funny...
"I pulled a planeswalker! I pulled a planeswalker!" ROFL That must have been hilarious to witness. Man I'm a Legacy player so I haven't pulled a whole lot of Zendikar/Worldwake but enough to know that pulling a Jace would be Mind Sculptingly awesome!
Just wanted to note that in a 6-round prerelease sealed flight the other week, I had a single Hedron Crab and a single Excavator ally. I secured THREE milling wins that day, with just those two cards. My deck was blue black with some removal, bounce, card draw, landwalk, lockdown via Merfolk Seastalkers, and a Vapor Snare that played oh-so-well with the Crab.
The first mill-out of the day was in a tie-breaking game against a white-something deck with a few too many defenders (the white zendikon and the defender ally). I played a turn 1 crab, a turn 2 excavator, and at least 2 more allies in the next 3 turns. I won that match with the life totals still at 20-20.
The next two mills were against my final opponent, who won the first game of our round. We were both 3-2-0 and were fighting to win 3 packs or go home empty handed -- actually we had agreed before the round that the winner would give the loser one pack, because we had been playing in a building with no heat for almost 8 hours, and going home without any prizes would be sad.
Game 2 I laid the crab down turn one, and managed to mill away all the lands my opponent needed to cast the threats in his hand. Halimar Excavator joined the party at some point, I think, and my Vapor Snare conspired with the Crab to seal the deal. The highlight of my entire day was when my opponent cried out, "That Crab should be in a crabcake!"
Game 3 was going to decide everything. I shuffled up, and politely asked my opponent to cut the deck and put the crab right back on top for me. Not wanting to take any risks, he gave the deck about 7 or 8 cuts before handing it back to me. Opening hand: Crab and Excavator, and I think 4 lands. I lol'd. Couldn't help it. And I won the final game of the day with a mill-out. (This time the opponent was mana-flooded, and each mill of mine buried creature spells, leaving him with just more lands.)
Upon receiving my prize packs, I made him pick which one he was getting. His rare wound up being a Sundial. I opened my two prize packs to find a comet storm and an Abyssal Persecutor =)
Lucky day.
Nice article. Wow, 3 mythics out of 4 packs?! Talk about lucky cracks :-)
I have very little experience or knowledge with Classic. That's why I usually leave analysis of that format up to the experts such as yourself. My definition of "rogue" is a deck that have very few representatives in the data sample that I have. Granted this definition is a bit weak when I'm only looking at one week's worth of data and there aren't that many classic tournaments in a week.
The only reason I included Classic this time because I was asked to do so by you and another poster in my previous article.
I agree that a wider time range would give some more insight and provide a better view of the format. That will take a bit more time, but I can certainly work on it if it would be useful.
I generally don't like going back too far because this kind of data has a relatively short shelf life.
im not sure how into the format of classic you are, but "void sphere" is not rogue. Its dragon stompy and has been in the meta for a few years. In the future if your going to snapshot classic again I think you need a wider time frame as what you posted above is not indicative of the actual classic metagame.
Thx for doing it though, that is appreciated.
Putting crab and luminarch in the same boat, very interesting. I completly agree. I feel luminarch is a terrible card to run, and I even rate a singleton hedron crab higher than it (although not by much). The only reason I feel that a single hedron crab is better than luminarch is for the rare moments where you manage to mill your opponents good cards (not for the sake of milling, but just for the sake of making your opponent groan a little). On that note, luminarch does 100% nothing on turn two where as a turn two hedron crab does perhaps 75% nothing. Hedron crab can at least do one of the following: mill relevant cards, chump, or eat a removal spell. Lets not forget though that it can also mill irrelevant cards, putting your opponent closer to relevant cards, and is thus, still terrible. If it was 0/3 though it might be sick!
It'll be a lot of fun to follow his growth in the game. i don't know how old many kids are when they first learned the game...but i was in college and so i was very competitive right out of the gate. My priority was to win day 1. Somebody starting out at a much younger age will have different priorities and it will be exciting to watch his knowledge and priorities change w/ regards to the game as he gets older. Great job guiding him along the way while letting him experiance it for himself.
Congrats on the pre-release, I'm glad you had fun with 2HG as it is the format I most wish Wizards had implemented on MTGO, it's really a blast. And by the way, I wish your kid was opening my packs, with his luck he could top-8 anywhere. If you had his packs on your pool to begin with, you most certaily would have won or at least 3-1'd.
Reading your article I couldn't help but think that Luminarch ascension is devastating in 2HG, as many games bog down all the time and it's much easier to defend, and you often have mana to spare middle to late in the game. I've noticed that on 2HG even flying combat tends to bog down, and intimidate guys don't usually mean much as you often have the right guy to block them. Landwalkers on the other hand are really relevant, as more often than not you'll have one head on the opposite team with the right land for it.
Based on the description I was hoping you'd have more discussion about Worldwake. Maybe I just want to discuss some of my ideas.
I think WU is currently the top deck in Zendikar Block, and will remain so after Worldwake.
What do you think about Vampires adding a splash color? I can see Creeping Tar Pit as a very difficult problem for W/U to deal with, and Bloodhusk Ritualist can replace Mind Sludge due to the loss of swamps. The Ritualist is also immune to Spell Pierce, can be played on turn 4, can be reused with Grim Discovery, and doesn't clog up the 5 mana slot the way Sludge/Bloodwitch/Ob Nixilis/Marsh Casualities(with Kicker) do.
I also think Arbor Elf, Leatherback, and Joraga War Caller really help out Nissa. The main question is what color will be best to splash with a Nissa deck.
And I think White Weenie gains a decent amount of high quality cards (Stoneforge Mystic) (Basilisk Collar) (Kitesail Apprentice), but it never did have a good game against W/U so I'm not sure if it's worthwhile if W/U gains in popularity.
This is exactly what I want to read. I love eternal formats and your well-thought commentary mixed with relevant data was engaging and useful.