Odd you don't actually show Nissa on here. I noticed that MTGO traders ran out of World Queller among other Zen rares. Any comments?
I can't believe you did that to Lee by the way. If I were he, you'd have gotten some serious dirty looks and perhaps some ear scathing words too. But on the other hand I get why you did it. Watching the events of the CC was actually really fun. Normally I don't enjoy watching other people play but this was like rooting for the Mets vs the Phillies main season (while I strongly dislike major league baseball, it seems the best analogy.) Very exciting and the multiball! was intriguing. First thing I thought of when Lee announced it (before I read about it on the cc page) was playing pinball from the 80s. It felt great to chat with the various people involved in this and watch as our collective efforts* paid off in the game play.
All in all, these mp3 casts are fun to listen to when doing other things (including just idling). Though remember to breath guys when sharing your thoughts as the sound quality isn't great (due in part to the mp3 format).
I thought about playing in the World of Kedoria league but the deck I wanted to play (5c elementals) was ruled out by the restriction to one shard building rules. Also having played the Ratslike Zombies deck AJ is running I dunno if I'd want to continually lose to it officially. :p I did try the Tribal PRE run by ShardFenix and had fun with that but I need more practice before I am comfortable in the format.
What did you guys think of the wotc built cc decks? I was wondering what you were thinking while playing since until the matches you had no idea what youd be facing.
(*though my own contributions were meager, I still felt connected. )
You could not do a set like this in paper without breaking the reprint policy. Admittedly that was a silly policy on the part of WOTC to begin with, and they should just kill it IMO.
Sorry to say, but I think you did not build the best deck possible with this pool. Playing 41 cards, and electropotence without being able to (ab)use it, is just not the best build. Period. I am not saying that the black-red would be the perfect build, but I think (and other players) it is certainly better.
A flying 2/3 deathtouch lifelinker in this format is a bomb.
And the format is fast, you had almost no chance with your build, and I think the results speak for themselves. If the player in round one was better, and not threwing easily his game away, you could have gone 0-4.
fow is not crucial in vintage any more so than in legacy. vintage has, well okay yeah i know even storm packs fows in vintage, but there is always mud,stax and ichorid all sans fow
fow in both formats is the number 1 most played card [ref:deckcheck]
while legacy does have more top decks without fow [AnT, goblins, aggro loam and zoo] there are non fow options that can and do win.
library of alexandria has been in a few decks in vintage most notably: tezz and drain tendrils. same for regrowth though in legacy it is very rarely used maybe once in a blue in a gifts rock list or occasionaly in tresh landstill and trian wreck
memory jar is in storm,stax,mud and welder decks pretty much the same for wheel of fortune but not in mud decks
yawgmoth's will is just absurd anywhere there is 4 rituals some petals/LED's and a tendril
Having moved Library of Alexandria out of this set in my head. I just have to go on about some things (tho off topic) I desperately Hope for from Med4.
Library Of Alexandria
Shahrazad (I will probably never see this online, but so want it, it's my favorite card ever... please?)
Stone Throwing Devils
Serendib Djinn
Demonic Tutor (old art)
Counterspell (beta art/old frame)
Plateau (beta art - would make plateau worth less then other duals, but would be neat to have choice)
Mountain (arabian symbol - I dont know how they would do this, but randomly replacing a common with this in packs would be hysterical, and a blast from the past)
Timber Wolves
Word of Command (best art ever!)
Zombie Master (more lords are awesome for this tribe)
Mishra's Workshop (...come on! Do it WOTC!! You know you want to...)
Stasis (how do we not have this yet?)
Simulacrum
Smoke
Pestilence (gimmie!)
Nettling Imp
Lich (I would hate opening this in limited, but we have Mirror Universe already)
Sinkhole (again.. how do we not have this yet?)
Gauntlet of Might
Cyclopean Tomb (I want to rebuild my exact paper Sol'Kanar deck from 95. I'll admit it)
Basalt Monolith
Ali From Cairo
Guardian Beast
Brass Man (so many fun and abusive combos with this guy)
Sorceress Queen
Jihad
I'm going to stop before I just type out everything from beta/arabians/legends. There is just SO MUCH stuff we still need online. Anyway thanks for dignifying this self indulgent second post with even a glance.
My only suggestion for revision would be nuke the stuff we will be getting soon, and change to the following.
FTV: The Beginning
Black Lotus
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Mox Emerald
Time Walk
Timetwister
Ancestral Recall
Sol Ring
Fastbond
Mana Vault
Wheel of Fortune
Regrowth
Time Vault
The reason I have deleted Library (the 10th power 9) is because at this point I don's see why it couldn't just have a place in Med4. It's a great card, and well balanced now IMO.
The only reason I see to not make the FTV format with the power cards above is that it makes a barrier for future players getting into classic/online vintage. What I would actually suggest is making it an eternal product, non redeemable and make it $45 for anyone who ever wants them. Make it one per account (if all restricted) and untradeable like the planeswalker cards. This will essentially render them useable, but worthless, and create no barriers to the format. Lastly, for my sake KEEP THE ORIGINAL ART! I think WOTC would have like a 80% account/purchase rate even at $45 a set with this one.
Absolutely love the Haakon deck. I've been trying to find ways to better take advantage of his ability, and never really considered the lifegain aspect. Think there's a way to incorporate Felidar Sovereign into the deck to end it even quicker?
but some of these cards are already available, and four of these cards will be coming out soon. i like the idea of some of the big time mana producers becoming easily available, but i think the set could use some more thought.
I dont see how Hedron Scrabbler is now a playble in any format. As I said during the deck construction it really hurt not to play black, But I did think I build the best deck possible with the pool.I could have tried the black version after board.
You can modify or substitute any card art used in your client. If you find the .png file for the card you want to change (in the card art folder), simply replace it with the appropriate version. My Demonic Tutor has a new frame (from DDC), but the old art ;D
You can also replace the art files with non-Magic pics, but they must be approximately the same size (or at least, aspect ratio, because the client resizes them to the card frame ratio).
Expansion symbols can be replaced with transparent-pixel-only PNGs, so they are still displayed, but not visible! My Duals (and all the other MED1-3 cards) look like they're from Beta :D
I like your decision to include only two of the P9. I think they could spread the Power 9 out over a number of releases/sets, make more money, and hold people's attention longer. But expansion symbols on my P9 are going to make me sad. I hate the bright gold distractions on my Tropical Islands and Mana Drains. The cards just don't look right. And if my Black Lotus has a different symbol on it than my Mox Ruby then I'll be disappointed. These are the most iconic and sought after cards. I want them to be perfect.
I don't like the four Urza's cards in your list. First, when those cards begin to arrive as soon as January (right?) they're going to be in enormously popular Classic sets. Sneak Attack, Gaea's Cradle, Thran Quarry, and maybe Serra's Sanctum and Time Spiral are going to be money rares in addition to the two most obvious restricted cards. We're all going to crack a ton of Urza's block. These 4 cards won't be hard to find. Second, when would you release FtV: Awesome? Are you going to do it in 2010 with 4/15 cards being in-print money rares? No way. Then it would just be FtV: Money Rares.
Vampiric Tutor? Well okay. MVW will be back someday. VT isn't reserved, either. What if it's in M11? I would love to own a VT, but this slot should be something else. That makes it a good PR2 card. WotC is giving paper spikes all over the world free foil Jittes with alternate art. The new VT that you want could easily be a digital PTQ or MOPR promo. (Same for the judge Will that you also want. It'll be tier 8 as soon as Masque's appears. Can you wait?)
Fastbond! Fuckyes! Pardon my language, that happens when you have a Fastbond. :)
Wheel of Fortune! Alright! Three silly artifacts! Love to have them!
Demonic Tutor - I want the original art too. Partially for nostalgia, partially because Liliana getting raped isn't very attractive. I wouldn't mind a non-foil version of this card, either.
Regrowth - not in a boxed set! Legacy needs 4. For the same reason, maybe not Library. There was talk of unrestricting it, believe it or not. The theory (*theory*) says that if you run more than 2 you'll obtain awesome card advantage - at the cost of neutering your deck, slowing yourself down, and maybe dying to Pithing Needle or something. Also, not every Vintage deck runs even a single Library anymore.
"You are losing money. Unless you rarepick something thats worth 2 or more tix you're ALWAYS losing money."
This is the great trap of anti-Swiss thinking. It assumes that a format with the *chance* of coming out ahead is inherently better than a format where you will, at best, break even. In gambling, your "EV" or "Expected Value" is basically how much you will win or lose over time at a game. If you have a positive EV, you are making money over time, if you have a negative EV, you are losing money over time.
84 and 43 offer the chance of coming out ahead in a given draft, but only a handful of players are good enough to go infinite on MTGO. Most players, even with raredrafting, are losing money over time in all three formats.
If your Magic goal is to play limited with the best possible EV, the question is not "which formats allow me to come out ahead after a draft?" the question is, "Which format offers me the best EV?" For most players, the answer is Swiss.
ha ha ha. you just did. let me guess, did your last draft 86 due to mana screw? Or did you totally lose to a player with a bad deck that just got lucky? Or maybe your opponent top-decked every card when they beat you 2-0. Whatever it was, the loss. was. not. your. fault.
There are quite a few of us, it turns out... I know of a few others but to be safe I'll let them say hello themselves.
Sadly, I'm not in the Minneapolis area but am, in fact, exiled to the farthest north region of the state where I exercise and play MTGO in a frozen tundra most of the year...
black red with hedron scrabbler and the 2 good equips gives you 22 good playables, and you run 18 lands, i dont get why you wouldnt run that, it builds itself and it would be brutal. (zektar shrine + electropotence = profit.)
I'm thinking of a split first at heart. If Classic is split into Classic (Vintage) and Legacy, we'll attract more people obviously because of legacy. The reason the format also needs to be sped up is because it really puts a lock on some of the games which is nice. Due to artifacts being everywhere, prison becomes some what better. I'm looking at this as the long term solution and a short term answer. We'll eventually get these cards online, so why not release sooner to seriously lesson the blow of cost. There are only two deck that can combo out on turn one and they have to have certain hands. Each of them pretty much are to fragile to deal with any hate after turn 3. In vintage, if we get these tools, you'll still have 2 maybe 3 decks that go off turn turn 1. You'll have other decks that are ment to stop these, and then you'll have dredge and prison decks. I don't know, giving a format Control, Combo, and Combo Control to attract players seems like it should work. People who feel the format is that fast though obviously have either had a very limited and bad time playint Vintage or just go off some impression of a monster combo they come up with in their head. The fact is, people want to play Zoo in EXT, as they want to play Zoo in Classic, but they cry because they don't have any proper idea what a Zoo deck should look like. They then look at some of the other Zoo lists, but when they have a hard time beating Combo, so they claim the format is to powerful. The reason Zoo can be played in Legacy has to deal with the banning of certain combo pieces we have and Mana Drain. This right here will have to force a split into Legacy and vintage, although we won't get all the legacy lists. Classic remains in tact, partial vintage but not fully powered. Oath is enough to slow combo from getting out of hand btw. If anyone does live in South Florida btw and wants to play Vintage, I am looking for a testing partner.
I think you miss the point. And that might be because you are 1800+ rated. So for you any article on drafting should cover formats of it that mean something to you. However a lot of lower than 1800 players play swiss and may get something from an article about Swiss drafting especially if they are having trouble with it. M10 I agree isn't particularly exciting when Zendikar is available.
As per usual an entertaining read. I may never play Vanguard again but I enjoy seeing you show off the johnny timmy exploits that come your twisted brain. :D
Odd you don't actually show Nissa on here. I noticed that MTGO traders ran out of World Queller among other Zen rares. Any comments?
I can't believe you did that to Lee by the way. If I were he, you'd have gotten some serious dirty looks and perhaps some ear scathing words too. But on the other hand I get why you did it. Watching the events of the CC was actually really fun. Normally I don't enjoy watching other people play but this was like rooting for the Mets vs the Phillies main season (while I strongly dislike major league baseball, it seems the best analogy.) Very exciting and the multiball! was intriguing. First thing I thought of when Lee announced it (before I read about it on the cc page) was playing pinball from the 80s. It felt great to chat with the various people involved in this and watch as our collective efforts* paid off in the game play.
All in all, these mp3 casts are fun to listen to when doing other things (including just idling). Though remember to breath guys when sharing your thoughts as the sound quality isn't great (due in part to the mp3 format).
I thought about playing in the World of Kedoria league but the deck I wanted to play (5c elementals) was ruled out by the restriction to one shard building rules. Also having played the Ratslike Zombies deck AJ is running I dunno if I'd want to continually lose to it officially. :p I did try the Tribal PRE run by ShardFenix and had fun with that but I need more practice before I am comfortable in the format.
What did you guys think of the wotc built cc decks? I was wondering what you were thinking while playing since until the matches you had no idea what youd be facing.
(*though my own contributions were meager, I still felt connected. )
You could not do a set like this in paper without breaking the reprint policy. Admittedly that was a silly policy on the part of WOTC to begin with, and they should just kill it IMO.
Who actually helped to make the CCC dex? Did players from the community beyond those asked contribute?
Hi,
Sorry to say, but I think you did not build the best deck possible with this pool. Playing 41 cards, and electropotence without being able to (ab)use it, is just not the best build. Period. I am not saying that the black-red would be the perfect build, but I think (and other players) it is certainly better.
A flying 2/3 deathtouch lifelinker in this format is a bomb.
And the format is fast, you had almost no chance with your build, and I think the results speak for themselves. If the player in round one was better, and not threwing easily his game away, you could have gone 0-4.
i agree with everything that guy just said..but you left out...
the laces ...gotta have the laces
fow is not crucial in vintage any more so than in legacy. vintage has, well okay yeah i know even storm packs fows in vintage, but there is always mud,stax and ichorid all sans fow
fow in both formats is the number 1 most played card [ref:deckcheck]
while legacy does have more top decks without fow [AnT, goblins, aggro loam and zoo] there are non fow options that can and do win.
library of alexandria has been in a few decks in vintage most notably: tezz and drain tendrils. same for regrowth though in legacy it is very rarely used maybe once in a blue in a gifts rock list or occasionaly in tresh landstill and trian wreck
memory jar is in storm,stax,mud and welder decks pretty much the same for wheel of fortune but not in mud decks
yawgmoth's will is just absurd anywhere there is 4 rituals some petals/LED's and a tendril
As much I'm a fan of MTGO, I don't think wizards should ever release an MTGO only From the Vault set.
Paper players needs luvin' too!
Having moved Library of Alexandria out of this set in my head. I just have to go on about some things (tho off topic) I desperately Hope for from Med4.
Library Of Alexandria
Shahrazad (I will probably never see this online, but so want it, it's my favorite card ever... please?)
Stone Throwing Devils
Serendib Djinn
Demonic Tutor (old art)
Counterspell (beta art/old frame)
Plateau (beta art - would make plateau worth less then other duals, but would be neat to have choice)
Mountain (arabian symbol - I dont know how they would do this, but randomly replacing a common with this in packs would be hysterical, and a blast from the past)
Timber Wolves
Word of Command (best art ever!)
Zombie Master (more lords are awesome for this tribe)
Mishra's Workshop (...come on! Do it WOTC!! You know you want to...)
Stasis (how do we not have this yet?)
Simulacrum
Smoke
Pestilence (gimmie!)
Nettling Imp
Lich (I would hate opening this in limited, but we have Mirror Universe already)
Sinkhole (again.. how do we not have this yet?)
Gauntlet of Might
Cyclopean Tomb (I want to rebuild my exact paper Sol'Kanar deck from 95. I'll admit it)
Basalt Monolith
Ali From Cairo
Guardian Beast
Brass Man (so many fun and abusive combos with this guy)
Sorceress Queen
Jihad
I'm going to stop before I just type out everything from beta/arabians/legends. There is just SO MUCH stuff we still need online. Anyway thanks for dignifying this self indulgent second post with even a glance.
I want all of this available now.
My only suggestion for revision would be nuke the stuff we will be getting soon, and change to the following.
FTV: The Beginning
Black Lotus
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Mox Emerald
Time Walk
Timetwister
Ancestral Recall
Sol Ring
Fastbond
Mana Vault
Wheel of Fortune
Regrowth
Time Vault
The reason I have deleted Library (the 10th power 9) is because at this point I don's see why it couldn't just have a place in Med4. It's a great card, and well balanced now IMO.
The only reason I see to not make the FTV format with the power cards above is that it makes a barrier for future players getting into classic/online vintage. What I would actually suggest is making it an eternal product, non redeemable and make it $45 for anyone who ever wants them. Make it one per account (if all restricted) and untradeable like the planeswalker cards. This will essentially render them useable, but worthless, and create no barriers to the format. Lastly, for my sake KEEP THE ORIGINAL ART! I think WOTC would have like a 80% account/purchase rate even at $45 a set with this one.
Viva la Online Vintage!
Absolutely love the Haakon deck. I've been trying to find ways to better take advantage of his ability, and never really considered the lifegain aspect. Think there's a way to incorporate Felidar Sovereign into the deck to end it even quicker?
but some of these cards are already available, and four of these cards will be coming out soon. i like the idea of some of the big time mana producers becoming easily available, but i think the set could use some more thought.
Oklahoma City area.
I dont see how Hedron Scrabbler is now a playble in any format. As I said during the deck construction it really hurt not to play black, But I did think I build the best deck possible with the pool.I could have tried the black version after board.
You can modify or substitute any card art used in your client. If you find the .png file for the card you want to change (in the card art folder), simply replace it with the appropriate version. My Demonic Tutor has a new frame (from DDC), but the old art ;D
You can also replace the art files with non-Magic pics, but they must be approximately the same size (or at least, aspect ratio, because the client resizes them to the card frame ratio).
Expansion symbols can be replaced with transparent-pixel-only PNGs, so they are still displayed, but not visible! My Duals (and all the other MED1-3 cards) look like they're from Beta :D
I like your decision to include only two of the P9. I think they could spread the Power 9 out over a number of releases/sets, make more money, and hold people's attention longer. But expansion symbols on my P9 are going to make me sad. I hate the bright gold distractions on my Tropical Islands and Mana Drains. The cards just don't look right. And if my Black Lotus has a different symbol on it than my Mox Ruby then I'll be disappointed. These are the most iconic and sought after cards. I want them to be perfect.
I don't like the four Urza's cards in your list. First, when those cards begin to arrive as soon as January (right?) they're going to be in enormously popular Classic sets. Sneak Attack, Gaea's Cradle, Thran Quarry, and maybe Serra's Sanctum and Time Spiral are going to be money rares in addition to the two most obvious restricted cards. We're all going to crack a ton of Urza's block. These 4 cards won't be hard to find. Second, when would you release FtV: Awesome? Are you going to do it in 2010 with 4/15 cards being in-print money rares? No way. Then it would just be FtV: Money Rares.
Vampiric Tutor? Well okay. MVW will be back someday. VT isn't reserved, either. What if it's in M11? I would love to own a VT, but this slot should be something else. That makes it a good PR2 card. WotC is giving paper spikes all over the world free foil Jittes with alternate art. The new VT that you want could easily be a digital PTQ or MOPR promo. (Same for the judge Will that you also want. It'll be tier 8 as soon as Masque's appears. Can you wait?)
Fastbond! Fuckyes! Pardon my language, that happens when you have a Fastbond. :)
Wheel of Fortune! Alright! Three silly artifacts! Love to have them!
Demonic Tutor - I want the original art too. Partially for nostalgia, partially because Liliana getting raped isn't very attractive. I wouldn't mind a non-foil version of this card, either.
Regrowth - not in a boxed set! Legacy needs 4. For the same reason, maybe not Library. There was talk of unrestricting it, believe it or not. The theory (*theory*) says that if you run more than 2 you'll obtain awesome card advantage - at the cost of neutering your deck, slowing yourself down, and maybe dying to Pithing Needle or something. Also, not every Vintage deck runs even a single Library anymore.
Andrea, you say it's a con of Swiss is that:
"You are losing money. Unless you rarepick something thats worth 2 or more tix you're ALWAYS losing money."
This is the great trap of anti-Swiss thinking. It assumes that a format with the *chance* of coming out ahead is inherently better than a format where you will, at best, break even. In gambling, your "EV" or "Expected Value" is basically how much you will win or lose over time at a game. If you have a positive EV, you are making money over time, if you have a negative EV, you are losing money over time.
84 and 43 offer the chance of coming out ahead in a given draft, but only a handful of players are good enough to go infinite on MTGO. Most players, even with raredrafting, are losing money over time in all three formats.
If your Magic goal is to play limited with the best possible EV, the question is not "which formats allow me to come out ahead after a draft?" the question is, "Which format offers me the best EV?" For most players, the answer is Swiss.
My second article for Pure opens with a defense of Swiss (http://puremtgo.com/articles/waiting-godot-acr-2-swiss), and there is some discussion in the comments after.
See Shaterri's article (http://puremtgo.com/articles/ev-raredrafting-and-you) for a look at the effect of raredrafting on your EV, and EV in the different draft formats.
Your major con for Swiss is worse for most players in 43 and 84, and Swiss is actually their slowest bleed for online limited.
ha ha ha. you just did. let me guess, did your last draft 86 due to mana screw? Or did you totally lose to a player with a bad deck that just got lucky? Or maybe your opponent top-decked every card when they beat you 2-0. Whatever it was, the loss. was. not. your. fault.
One will be out tomorrow afternoon (Lee Sharpe) and one will be out shortly after that (Erik Lauer)!
There are quite a few of us, it turns out... I know of a few others but to be safe I'll let them say hello themselves.
Sadly, I'm not in the Minneapolis area but am, in fact, exiled to the farthest north region of the state where I exercise and play MTGO in a frozen tundra most of the year...
Wondering because its hard to tell from your picture if your the person I think you are.
Nice interview. When are the other two coming? :)
black red with hedron scrabbler and the 2 good equips gives you 22 good playables, and you run 18 lands, i dont get why you wouldnt run that, it builds itself and it would be brutal. (zektar shrine + electropotence = profit.)
I'm thinking of a split first at heart. If Classic is split into Classic (Vintage) and Legacy, we'll attract more people obviously because of legacy. The reason the format also needs to be sped up is because it really puts a lock on some of the games which is nice. Due to artifacts being everywhere, prison becomes some what better. I'm looking at this as the long term solution and a short term answer. We'll eventually get these cards online, so why not release sooner to seriously lesson the blow of cost. There are only two deck that can combo out on turn one and they have to have certain hands. Each of them pretty much are to fragile to deal with any hate after turn 3. In vintage, if we get these tools, you'll still have 2 maybe 3 decks that go off turn turn 1. You'll have other decks that are ment to stop these, and then you'll have dredge and prison decks. I don't know, giving a format Control, Combo, and Combo Control to attract players seems like it should work. People who feel the format is that fast though obviously have either had a very limited and bad time playint Vintage or just go off some impression of a monster combo they come up with in their head. The fact is, people want to play Zoo in EXT, as they want to play Zoo in Classic, but they cry because they don't have any proper idea what a Zoo deck should look like. They then look at some of the other Zoo lists, but when they have a hard time beating Combo, so they claim the format is to powerful. The reason Zoo can be played in Legacy has to deal with the banning of certain combo pieces we have and Mana Drain. This right here will have to force a split into Legacy and vintage, although we won't get all the legacy lists. Classic remains in tact, partial vintage but not fully powered. Oath is enough to slow combo from getting out of hand btw. If anyone does live in South Florida btw and wants to play Vintage, I am looking for a testing partner.
I think you miss the point. And that might be because you are 1800+ rated. So for you any article on drafting should cover formats of it that mean something to you. However a lot of lower than 1800 players play swiss and may get something from an article about Swiss drafting especially if they are having trouble with it. M10 I agree isn't particularly exciting when Zendikar is available.
As per usual an entertaining read. I may never play Vanguard again but I enjoy seeing you show off the johnny timmy exploits that come your twisted brain. :D