@Mike:
You wrote "Before v3, I could find a game of Tribal at any time, and I could often find a Two-headed giant game of classic tribal. Now, I give up if I don't get an opponent within ten minutes, which means I give up about a third of the time I want a game. That is not good."
This is exactly what I'm saying.
@Shardfenix: I'm glad you're interested in this. Let's see how many people are interested in PREs.
@Flippers_Giraffe:
You wrote "I've never seen cards like Orim's Chant, Force of Will, Daze, Flash, Natural Order/Prog, Helm/Void etc in a casual Tribal Classic game, but we will if it's supported and I don't look forward to that day."
I advise you to re-read the "Spikes Won't Bite" part of the article. Basically there I say that none of the casual players should worry about those cards you mentioned. Cryptic Command is legal in Std but you don't see it that often in the casual room, do you? The same is true for this format as well.
@StealthBadger: My angels deck was a Std Tribal Wars deck and believe me, back then the toolbox as you say, was more than enough to solve all my problems. Mine wasen't the fastest deck around so instead of creating problems to others, first I had to solve the problems created by others and thus a sideboard within the maindeck was necessary.
Other much faster decks, such as the ones I presented in the article, don't even bother with that and this is perfectly understandable. It just depends on your deck and your playing style. I'm only saying and also showing people that it is possible to deal with different types of decks with the main deck.
PureMTGO contributor Basic Land shared the trick with me.
* Save out your card pool with the "Save As" function in the event deck editor.
* Load that deck into your standard editor.
* Add the basic lands of your choice.
* Save the change, then reload that deck in the event editor.
As long as you have only added basic lands, it will work.
With the upcoming full-frame Zendikar basics showing up once per pack, this little trick for blinging up your drafts will become very popular, I'm sure.
Whilst your angels deck does have a shiney "pre-sideboarded" 4 colour toolbox available to it, you cannot seriously be suggesting that this is a stable basis for a format? Every single deck must either feature a toolbox of some kind, or just give up on some of it's matchups? Yes, your deck is a good example of a deck making use of a toolbox, but no, that can't be a good strategy for a wide range of decks.
I'm of the opinion that tribal should feature a sideboard, and should check that your deck is tribal-legal after boarding, but does not neccessarily have to be the same tribe, after all, i doubt that there will be that many decks able to completely change tribe post-board. For those that are able to, they will have to be built pretty intellegently to abuse this, and it will be a deserved advantage, for giving up lots of slots, akin to a transformational sideboard (like tooth and nail used to use in standard, for example).
My main query with the whole format is that i really can't see anybody other than elves, merfolk, faeries and goblins winning in tribal classic. Their tribal support has just been way greater than any others, over the years. Personally, I'd be keenest to play extended tribal, which would have a lower cost of entry than classic, but a big enough selection of creatures to keep a range of decks viable.
On a side note, i did used to be in a competitive tribal clan, and had a lot of success with giants in TSP-Lor/Sha season. They're interesting, in that they were very strong in tribal (didn't have much game against faeries though), but almost useless in traditional standard as they just rolled over to decks that weren't rammed full of creatures. Maybe I'll post my list up later.
I'm going to be on AJ's side in this matter but want to point out that player run events and Wizards support are two very different things in my book.
Pauper was still fun and you could run casual decks in the events and still stand a good chance. When Wizards brought out the support then the as you call them Spikes appeared, with greater prizes on the line the decks went up that extra notch to push out any chance of a casual deck competing in these events.
I've never seen cards like Orim's Chant, Force of Will, Daze, Flash, Natural Order/Prog, Helm/Void etc in a casual Tribal Classic game, but we will if it's supported and I don't look forward to that day. I play Classic if I want to play with/vs those decks.
I do that too, so much and you feel like even more of an idiot when you're playing blue/black and duress his had to see double Overrun, take 1,leave Negate Mana open to counter the second one and click through the counter. D'oh!
Also, I love the articles, you are the best draft writer I have read, anywhere, ever!
i have always loved tribal wars and since i started playing during onslaught i have always out of habit built tribal decks. I wish the format did come back to prominence. In fact ill even offer this...I have worked with MTGOtraders.com before in hosting PRE's(i used to host UPDC). If there was a large enough player base and i could find a healthy 20+ or so players. I would love hosting a weekly or bi-monthly PRE for classic tribal.
Shame on the first round idiot. I mean, NO one is happy to face a baneslayer angel. Bombiness aside, just the thought that the guy across the table got 2 free drafts AND a bomb to play with just makes me down. I was playing a MED III prerelease the other day (crappy pool, no money rares) and I face a guy with foil dual land and a mana drain. I won the match and still felt like a loser. :/ But that's no reason to be a prick.
Nice picks, and yeah WU can be a pretty nifty combo, I agree with most of the choices but would have probably picked the quake, i'm a sucker for gold symbols. I agree with the evaluation of mind spring, it just LOOKS so good, but then you're actually playin, and everybody is casting creatures and removal and..you never find the opening to actually cast it unless you've already stabilized the game and have a lot of mana. At that point shouldnt you be winning already? Anyway, i'll happily play it, but it's not as good as I thought.
As for the game themselves, yeah, countering the equipment was important. And it's nice to bait removal but sometimes u just got to ask the tough questions and hope they have no answers. Also, one nitpick: when all you have in hand is stuff you WANT to keep, why use the looter? Ok, makes sense if you have someth so amazing as a baneslayer, but still... I loot only when i have stuff i want to throw out, like land or a small useless creature, etc.
Nice article and I look forward to AJ Impy's response.
I have never figured out where I fit in the world of Spikes, Timmys, and Johnnys, but I am an avid player of Classic Tribal Wars. I have decks ranging from a very Spikish Merfolk to Johnny-ish Illusions to a Timmy Spider deck. I really don't care what sort of opponent I face, but the game is more fun when I use a Merfolk or Faerie deck against I spike player rather than my Bears deck against Goblins. Though the biggest thrill is when my Bears beat down a spike deck (rare, but has happened).
I don't believe that I have ever been offended by any card an opponent has played, and I know I have played Wrath of God in the format. I have seen Jokulhaups and Inferno played in Tribal as well along with cards like Moat.
Before v3, I could find a game of Tribal at any time, and I could often find a Two-headed giant game of classic tribal. Now, I give up if I don't get an opponent within ten minutes, which means I give up about a third of the time I want a game. That is not good.
I think the first problem is the distinction be Standard and Classic Tribal. Get rid of standard. With the new Lords in M10, the definite existence of tribes in Zendikar, and heavy doses of tribes in Alara (birds, cats, humans, goblins, etc.), I think there is enough tribal opportunities in straight standard. I think WotC has decided to maintain tribal support within standard even outside of dedicated tribal blocks.
I don't have the time to dedicate to a full up event, but would have no problem if they existed and brought new players into the format. I think Tribal is a format that would most strongly appeal to Spikes with heavy leanings towards Johnny-Spikes and Timmy-Spikes to the point that their inclusion in the pool of players would not necessarily be a detriment to the format.
On your discussion of Spikes... Wizards has often discussed that the motivations behind Spikes (and Johnnys and Timmys) varies greatly, but the outcome of having Spikes around doesn't overly hinge on the motiviation. Your statement that, "WotC says that everyone playing this game competitively is called Spike," isn't really fair as you never call them anything but Spikes either. I also think that both Achilles and Agemennon Spikes can be deck innovators or net copiers depending on their skill set (deck construction, field analysis, tournament play, etc.). I think the biggest difference in Spikes is what could be referred to as the "Bully Spike". Bully Spikes are players driven to win at any cost, but not necessarily good enough to win in a highly competitive environment like Standard or Classic, and thus, Bully Spikes will find a very casual format and come in to beat up the memebers of that community and feel good about their accomplishments.
Bully Spikes, to me, are the reason to avoid seeking expansion of Tribal Wars beyond the current casual community.
Always willing to read up on anything Tribal Wars related and may yet get back to writing some article myself. Thanks for the read.
I feel you on the not being used to counter spell thing. I played a game last night where I forgot to cast it TWICE within the same game, causing me to lose. I usually play aggressive, weenie or other non-control decks and I just automatically clicked "OK".
I think they should allow one global UNDO per game that allows you to take back one accidental click. Although I'm not sure how you'd keep it from being abused.
The goblin idea isn't really an evolution. It's been around in pauper for awhile, and rites of initiation was always been one of the choices for a finisher (Song of Blood being another). The deck is still mostly crippled by a CoP. It seems more like Numdiar went back to basics (old goblin lists didn't run burn) than using any sort of innovation, but I do agree with the move.
I was kicking myself because early, at the first foreshadowing of "Landsapalooza", I thought to myself to buy Knight of the Reliquary at 0.5-ish. Then I got busy/forgot, until about the same time this went out.
But only half a week past this article, KotR has already continued it's climb up to 4.50. That makes it the second most expensive rare in Conflux, behind only Noble Hierarch (5.25). Speculation is mighty, but I think this is a bit overboard.
Has Song of Blood been tried instead of Rites of Initiation? With 40 creatures to hit, it probably has about the same effect without requiring cards held back in hand. I don't know which is better, just a conceivable alternative.
Cloudpost I'm sticking in the back of my mind in case our newcoming "Landsapalooza" block offers some contributions.
I like the way you go about different builds, which is a good analysis to have. I do think it's worth noting that the worst enemy of the deck is not any particular opposing deck - it's time. Practice makes decisions easier so you can go faster, but still this is a tough deck to play 3 games with, especially if your build relies on 2-power critters. It's a tough deck to play 10 rounds with also, as fatigue will get you. (I can hardly justify 10 hours of Magic to myself, let alone psych up the energy to play every minute of that.) One of the results of this is that you may have to forego optimal strategy (like capsizing land) because it slows you down. I'm very impressed how Malicious_86 was able to play it to the top of a Weekend Challenge (ID-ing the finals I think?) although I still disagree with his preference for Force Spike.
The list at the top should TOTALLY have Grim Harvest, at least in the board. And Crookclaw Transmuter is a very clever addition, though I have no opinion on effectiveness. I think it's worth moving up to Ephemerons for the reasons in the previous paragraph. I also always liked that in a control vs control match where nobody casts anything, they can go out of your hand to avoid making you discard and are a manaless catalyst for the inevitable counter war. (Although unfortunately on your own turn.)
GW Cloak I found though not-overwhelming experience to be a pretty easy matchup. At least for me since I like 4 Diabolic Edicts. But as with any aggro you have to get your mana in place fairly quickly.
Adding red instead of white sounds appealing on the surface. But I think that just makes decent matchups better while totally punting the burn matchup, and possibly GR as well. That Parlor Teachings list doesn't look appealing to me at all, I'd rather just play Parlor Tricks with an intact Transmute system. And I don't think the mana base shown can support that much white. Not at the speed you need it. (That was always PT's problem, getting COP:Red and a white source in the very limited time available.)
And I have no idea on the Thunder decks and really whould try playing one. Though as I've said elsewhere, I give a hearty thumbs up to anyone who uses Swirling Sandstorm.
Again, good writeup. Is this really your first article here? Nicely done.
Im not sure what would work best to be totally honest. I likewise hate the sound of my own voice (though judging by the comments AJ has received, i should possibly leverage my british accent for a few free bonus comments) and find talking to the ether a little awkward.
I think that given the shortness of the videos that you can probably get away with the silence, it just felt unusual to watch a magic video and not have commentary (i've been spoilt by lsv,the coverage team, mtgovideos posters and modosharks (r.i.p.), i guess).
I am a singer who has sung for many people and I still hate the sound of my recorded voice. I hear compliments from people who have heard my recorded voice and I cringe. Take it from me, you can't judge the sound of your own voice. If you enunciate and have good diction you should do fine with it.
I was suggesting that it would be something that Wizards could implement to improve participation. Unfortunetly, I don't think it can be done without Wizards adding that feature to the game.
Thanks everyone so far for their comments.
@Mike:
You wrote "Before v3, I could find a game of Tribal at any time, and I could often find a Two-headed giant game of classic tribal. Now, I give up if I don't get an opponent within ten minutes, which means I give up about a third of the time I want a game. That is not good."
This is exactly what I'm saying.
@Shardfenix: I'm glad you're interested in this. Let's see how many people are interested in PREs.
@Flippers_Giraffe:
You wrote "I've never seen cards like Orim's Chant, Force of Will, Daze, Flash, Natural Order/Prog, Helm/Void etc in a casual Tribal Classic game, but we will if it's supported and I don't look forward to that day."
I advise you to re-read the "Spikes Won't Bite" part of the article. Basically there I say that none of the casual players should worry about those cards you mentioned. Cryptic Command is legal in Std but you don't see it that often in the casual room, do you? The same is true for this format as well.
@StealthBadger: My angels deck was a Std Tribal Wars deck and believe me, back then the toolbox as you say, was more than enough to solve all my problems. Mine wasen't the fastest deck around so instead of creating problems to others, first I had to solve the problems created by others and thus a sideboard within the maindeck was necessary.
Other much faster decks, such as the ones I presented in the article, don't even bother with that and this is perfectly understandable. It just depends on your deck and your playing style. I'm only saying and also showing people that it is possible to deal with different types of decks with the main deck.
LE
PureMTGO contributor Basic Land shared the trick with me.
* Save out your card pool with the "Save As" function in the event deck editor.
* Load that deck into your standard editor.
* Add the basic lands of your choice.
* Save the change, then reload that deck in the event editor.
As long as you have only added basic lands, it will work.
With the upcoming full-frame Zendikar basics showing up once per pack, this little trick for blinging up your drafts will become very popular, I'm sure.
I'd play if it was at a sensible time (i'm a GMT-er).
Whilst your angels deck does have a shiney "pre-sideboarded" 4 colour toolbox available to it, you cannot seriously be suggesting that this is a stable basis for a format? Every single deck must either feature a toolbox of some kind, or just give up on some of it's matchups? Yes, your deck is a good example of a deck making use of a toolbox, but no, that can't be a good strategy for a wide range of decks.
I'm of the opinion that tribal should feature a sideboard, and should check that your deck is tribal-legal after boarding, but does not neccessarily have to be the same tribe, after all, i doubt that there will be that many decks able to completely change tribe post-board. For those that are able to, they will have to be built pretty intellegently to abuse this, and it will be a deserved advantage, for giving up lots of slots, akin to a transformational sideboard (like tooth and nail used to use in standard, for example).
My main query with the whole format is that i really can't see anybody other than elves, merfolk, faeries and goblins winning in tribal classic. Their tribal support has just been way greater than any others, over the years. Personally, I'd be keenest to play extended tribal, which would have a lower cost of entry than classic, but a big enough selection of creatures to keep a range of decks viable.
On a side note, i did used to be in a competitive tribal clan, and had a lot of success with giants in TSP-Lor/Sha season. They're interesting, in that they were very strong in tribal (didn't have much game against faeries though), but almost useless in traditional standard as they just rolled over to decks that weren't rammed full of creatures. Maybe I'll post my list up later.
that question - how did you get the spiffy lands in there? Does it pull lands from your stock when you do "add land"? I never thought about that...
I'm going to be on AJ's side in this matter but want to point out that player run events and Wizards support are two very different things in my book.
Pauper was still fun and you could run casual decks in the events and still stand a good chance. When Wizards brought out the support then the as you call them Spikes appeared, with greater prizes on the line the decks went up that extra notch to push out any chance of a casual deck competing in these events.
I've never seen cards like Orim's Chant, Force of Will, Daze, Flash, Natural Order/Prog, Helm/Void etc in a casual Tribal Classic game, but we will if it's supported and I don't look forward to that day. I play Classic if I want to play with/vs those decks.
I do that too, so much and you feel like even more of an idiot when you're playing blue/black and duress his had to see double Overrun, take 1,leave Negate Mana open to counter the second one and click through the counter. D'oh!
Also, I love the articles, you are the best draft writer I have read, anywhere, ever!
Bummer on not siding the Servant game two grats on the Angel though that probably took some of the sting out of losing the match.
i have always loved tribal wars and since i started playing during onslaught i have always out of habit built tribal decks. I wish the format did come back to prominence. In fact ill even offer this...I have worked with MTGOtraders.com before in hosting PRE's(i used to host UPDC). If there was a large enough player base and i could find a healthy 20+ or so players. I would love hosting a weekly or bi-monthly PRE for classic tribal.
Shame on the first round idiot. I mean, NO one is happy to face a baneslayer angel. Bombiness aside, just the thought that the guy across the table got 2 free drafts AND a bomb to play with just makes me down. I was playing a MED III prerelease the other day (crappy pool, no money rares) and I face a guy with foil dual land and a mana drain. I won the match and still felt like a loser. :/ But that's no reason to be a prick.
Nice picks, and yeah WU can be a pretty nifty combo, I agree with most of the choices but would have probably picked the quake, i'm a sucker for gold symbols. I agree with the evaluation of mind spring, it just LOOKS so good, but then you're actually playin, and everybody is casting creatures and removal and..you never find the opening to actually cast it unless you've already stabilized the game and have a lot of mana. At that point shouldnt you be winning already? Anyway, i'll happily play it, but it's not as good as I thought.
As for the game themselves, yeah, countering the equipment was important. And it's nice to bait removal but sometimes u just got to ask the tough questions and hope they have no answers. Also, one nitpick: when all you have in hand is stuff you WANT to keep, why use the looter? Ok, makes sense if you have someth so amazing as a baneslayer, but still... I loot only when i have stuff i want to throw out, like land or a small useless creature, etc.
Nice article and I look forward to AJ Impy's response.
I have never figured out where I fit in the world of Spikes, Timmys, and Johnnys, but I am an avid player of Classic Tribal Wars. I have decks ranging from a very Spikish Merfolk to Johnny-ish Illusions to a Timmy Spider deck. I really don't care what sort of opponent I face, but the game is more fun when I use a Merfolk or Faerie deck against I spike player rather than my Bears deck against Goblins. Though the biggest thrill is when my Bears beat down a spike deck (rare, but has happened).
I don't believe that I have ever been offended by any card an opponent has played, and I know I have played Wrath of God in the format. I have seen Jokulhaups and Inferno played in Tribal as well along with cards like Moat.
Before v3, I could find a game of Tribal at any time, and I could often find a Two-headed giant game of classic tribal. Now, I give up if I don't get an opponent within ten minutes, which means I give up about a third of the time I want a game. That is not good.
I think the first problem is the distinction be Standard and Classic Tribal. Get rid of standard. With the new Lords in M10, the definite existence of tribes in Zendikar, and heavy doses of tribes in Alara (birds, cats, humans, goblins, etc.), I think there is enough tribal opportunities in straight standard. I think WotC has decided to maintain tribal support within standard even outside of dedicated tribal blocks.
I don't have the time to dedicate to a full up event, but would have no problem if they existed and brought new players into the format. I think Tribal is a format that would most strongly appeal to Spikes with heavy leanings towards Johnny-Spikes and Timmy-Spikes to the point that their inclusion in the pool of players would not necessarily be a detriment to the format.
On your discussion of Spikes... Wizards has often discussed that the motivations behind Spikes (and Johnnys and Timmys) varies greatly, but the outcome of having Spikes around doesn't overly hinge on the motiviation. Your statement that, "WotC says that everyone playing this game competitively is called Spike," isn't really fair as you never call them anything but Spikes either. I also think that both Achilles and Agemennon Spikes can be deck innovators or net copiers depending on their skill set (deck construction, field analysis, tournament play, etc.). I think the biggest difference in Spikes is what could be referred to as the "Bully Spike". Bully Spikes are players driven to win at any cost, but not necessarily good enough to win in a highly competitive environment like Standard or Classic, and thus, Bully Spikes will find a very casual format and come in to beat up the memebers of that community and feel good about their accomplishments.
Bully Spikes, to me, are the reason to avoid seeking expansion of Tribal Wars beyond the current casual community.
Always willing to read up on anything Tribal Wars related and may yet get back to writing some article myself. Thanks for the read.
-Mike
how do you get sexy full art lands in draft?
I feel you on the not being used to counter spell thing. I played a game last night where I forgot to cast it TWICE within the same game, causing me to lose. I usually play aggressive, weenie or other non-control decks and I just automatically clicked "OK".
I think they should allow one global UNDO per game that allows you to take back one accidental click. Although I'm not sure how you'd keep it from being abused.
The only surprise regarding the Civic Ranger deck was there wasn't any domain spells at all, otherwise it's quite good for a manna ramp deck.
The goblin idea isn't really an evolution. It's been around in pauper for awhile, and rites of initiation was always been one of the choices for a finisher (Song of Blood being another). The deck is still mostly crippled by a CoP. It seems more like Numdiar went back to basics (old goblin lists didn't run burn) than using any sort of innovation, but I do agree with the move.
I can't agree more with you.
I play REALLY fast and I have problems with time! I loose, because of time in my last 2 man queue :( Capsizing 2 lands per turn is waaaaay too slow...
Crookclaw Transmuter is tech, but its 1 toughness is a bit of a problem, so I'm going to switch to Ephemeron.
My next article is going to be about Thunder deck, so stay tuned (if you are interested of course).
And, yes this is my first article, but I doubt that I'll improve my writing style :)
I was kicking myself because early, at the first foreshadowing of "Landsapalooza", I thought to myself to buy Knight of the Reliquary at 0.5-ish. Then I got busy/forgot, until about the same time this went out.
But only half a week past this article, KotR has already continued it's climb up to 4.50. That makes it the second most expensive rare in Conflux, behind only Noble Hierarch (5.25). Speculation is mighty, but I think this is a bit overboard.
Has Song of Blood been tried instead of Rites of Initiation? With 40 creatures to hit, it probably has about the same effect without requiring cards held back in hand. I don't know which is better, just a conceivable alternative.
Cloudpost I'm sticking in the back of my mind in case our newcoming "Landsapalooza" block offers some contributions.
I like the way you go about different builds, which is a good analysis to have. I do think it's worth noting that the worst enemy of the deck is not any particular opposing deck - it's time. Practice makes decisions easier so you can go faster, but still this is a tough deck to play 3 games with, especially if your build relies on 2-power critters. It's a tough deck to play 10 rounds with also, as fatigue will get you. (I can hardly justify 10 hours of Magic to myself, let alone psych up the energy to play every minute of that.) One of the results of this is that you may have to forego optimal strategy (like capsizing land) because it slows you down. I'm very impressed how Malicious_86 was able to play it to the top of a Weekend Challenge (ID-ing the finals I think?) although I still disagree with his preference for Force Spike.
The list at the top should TOTALLY have Grim Harvest, at least in the board. And Crookclaw Transmuter is a very clever addition, though I have no opinion on effectiveness. I think it's worth moving up to Ephemerons for the reasons in the previous paragraph. I also always liked that in a control vs control match where nobody casts anything, they can go out of your hand to avoid making you discard and are a manaless catalyst for the inevitable counter war. (Although unfortunately on your own turn.)
GW Cloak I found though not-overwhelming experience to be a pretty easy matchup. At least for me since I like 4 Diabolic Edicts. But as with any aggro you have to get your mana in place fairly quickly.
Adding red instead of white sounds appealing on the surface. But I think that just makes decent matchups better while totally punting the burn matchup, and possibly GR as well. That Parlor Teachings list doesn't look appealing to me at all, I'd rather just play Parlor Tricks with an intact Transmute system. And I don't think the mana base shown can support that much white. Not at the speed you need it. (That was always PT's problem, getting COP:Red and a white source in the very limited time available.)
And I have no idea on the Thunder decks and really whould try playing one. Though as I've said elsewhere, I give a hearty thumbs up to anyone who uses Swirling Sandstorm.
Again, good writeup. Is this really your first article here? Nicely done.
Im not sure what would work best to be totally honest. I likewise hate the sound of my own voice (though judging by the comments AJ has received, i should possibly leverage my british accent for a few free bonus comments) and find talking to the ether a little awkward.
I think that given the shortness of the videos that you can probably get away with the silence, it just felt unusual to watch a magic video and not have commentary (i've been spoilt by lsv,the coverage team, mtgovideos posters and modosharks (r.i.p.), i guess).
adding owl city background music automatically makes any replay an instant win
I love the look of the civic ranger deck...i just cant afford lightning bolts or wild mongrels right now...not cool lol
i bought my baneslayer angels for 2 ajani goldmanes. ftw.
I am a singer who has sung for many people and I still hate the sound of my recorded voice. I hear compliments from people who have heard my recorded voice and I cringe. Take it from me, you can't judge the sound of your own voice. If you enunciate and have good diction you should do fine with it.
I was suggesting that it would be something that Wizards could implement to improve participation. Unfortunetly, I don't think it can be done without Wizards adding that feature to the game.