Honestly, I go with Rise from the Grave. At the very worst, it's splashable, which would be fine if you get a few assassinates or doomblades to splash along with it.
I usually play mono black in Pauper but decided to try these two out last night. I only came across one person playing something similar to the Blue Black while playing the GW, and it destroyed me. All the protection in the world won't save you from 8 sacrifice spells. Also a few games could have gone my way if I'd had Corrupt instead of Tendrils. Progenitus was nice because I see alot of recursion, reanimators and graveyard play. I might even up it to three.
Even if we use your definition of aggro, this deck doesn't meet it:
-Persistent damage dealing? Not with 9 "real" creatures (2 of the 13 are 0/7 walls, one a Looter, and the Palace Guard is not generally known for its attacking, especially with only a Pikemaster as relevant power-up).
-Quick, hard-hitting creatures? I'll give you quick, but hard-hitting with a curve that goes 2/1, 1/1, 1/1, 1/1, 1/1, 1/1, 1/1 ... ? Nine of 13 creatures have power of 1 or 0.
-Put pressure? What pressure? The Sprite is outclassed by about a dozen relevant cards. The Flail does help, certainly - it's a fine card, but if you're reliant on one piece of equipment to activate your 1-power beaters, you're going to have to draw like God.
That's without getting into the disconnect between "aggro deck" and "Righteousness" - it's not that the deck is terrible or anything, it's just torn between "aggro" creatures but a "control" curve/spell ratio. It lacks focus, which is more what I wanted to discuss - it seems like forcing W/u is at least worth discussing here, even given the deck won the draft.
On the topic of Artillery, you definitely have a point, and it's very close. Hate-drafting P2P1 seems awkward, given an 8-player (non-team) table, so I discount that more than you do, but they're all good points considering the pack is pretty empty other than the two red cards.
Quick question specifically about P1P1. You don't mention Inferno Elemental as a consideration (though someone else did). I've seen this card have a tremendous impact on the game when it hits the board - yet you didn't mention it. Is it the cost (which, while high, is not prohibitive in limited)?
Classic is not Vintage, especially in the case of Strip Mine. You are doing your entire argument a disservice by commenting that grabbing Strip Mine is the wrong play in Vintage, because it could very easily be the right play in Classic. Sometimes comparisons between the two formats make sense, but in this case you are comparing the resource management of a format that runs up to 10 pieces of the games most powerful artifact acceleration (Lotus, Moxes, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Lotus Petal) with a format that has only the worst two of those.
Also, there will be no bannings - ever. It is not a point worth discussing - it goes beyond the meta game into the very reason for the format's existence - you can play one of everything here. The worst result of which is that people will simply shift over to Legacy (which will come fast enough) and eschew Classic until the format can escape the problems Strip Mine could cause. The best result is that is simply adds another layer to the meta game, but I genuinely fear that the worst result is possible.
How is this not an aggro deck? I've seen aggro decks defined as "a deck which attempts to win the game through persistent, quick damage dealing. Usually these decks will use small, hard-hitting creatures to win the game"
So they may not all be hard hitting, but they are all cheap and put pressure on the opponent to play defense. Matched up with the drafted non creature spells and especially gorgon flail, i think it was a great strategy.
Secondly, I agree with the artillery pick over earthquake. 1)The other drafted cards were looking to get through quick damage, and I would rather pick off my opponents crits to get damage through than wipe away the whole board. 2) In his situation, an artillery would have killed almost every non wall creature in the deck had he let someone else take it.
I'm ok with the Consume Spirit over Mind Shatter pick I think. The Rhox Pikemaster over Blinding Mage, may have been an error in judgement. Thanks for the comment
I don't know Whiffy. I have been consistent 2-2 in M10 sealed for like the past week/week and a half. I just can't get a decent enough pool to go 3-1 or 4-0. I did 3-1 twice and 4-0 once (during prerelease mind you). I've been stuck at 11QP since last week and just can't nail down the last 4 points. Every time I play M10 sealed I get Silence, Mind Spring, Zombie Lord dude, a dual land, Open the Vaults and that stupid Mirror, or Honor of the Pure. I swear to you, I have to scrape the bottom of the card pool to get a serviceable deck together, and then I always run into the dude that has Garruk, Seige Gang, Overrun (x2) elves, spiders, centaurs, bolts, etc... or the dude who has evasion.dek.
Last night I played a GBr deck with Lilliana, some mid-range green / black guys, assassinate, 2 bolts, pyromancer, gorgon flail. I squeaked out my first round and in 2nd round, game 2, by T4 my opp has a phantom warrior and wind drake on the table. I got the pyromancer out and had a giant growth and Lil in hand. I wasn't getting any action and on turn 5 he laid down a snapping drake and I was now at 14. I had to play Lil in order to put Gorgon flail on top of my deck. He kill Lil, I play the flail, kill his snapping drake. He plays a land and passes the turn. I try to take out the phant warrior and HE HARM'S WAY's my pyromancer. Even when I switched my deck to BWr, I could still barely eek out a win. Round 3 I barely win and Round 4 I ran into aforementioned Overrun.dek I went 2-2 last night. No QPs but a least 3 packs toward my next sealed.
I will have to win a Sealed and a Draft tonight (not likely) or try to grind out an LCQ in order to get in the MOCS 5 on Saturday.
Maybe I've just been having a bad run. I'm a decent player but just can't seem to catch a break with these M10 cards.
Yesterday I was playing against a land destruction deck and he hit me with boil and choke (in the main deck) when I was playing UBr, I still had 4 non-island blue sources in play.
Some of your analysis make sense to me, but i dont really understand why you're feeling that DL & Whiffy are "crusading" against Strip Mine. I didnt feel that in any way. I think they are just calling to keep an eye on something that could hugely impact our meta. Wasteland, the little bro of strip mine, was simply the card which had the biggest impact on our meta since it release if you except necro. I think that to advice is a pretty good thing, even if i dont agree all the time with them. Take the time to read some old post on CQ or here, when they talked about the skull before it was restricted. It is a pretty good example of their good insights about our meta.
Actually I agree on that pick. Sign in blood is good, but Bog Wraith is more then a Hill Giant. If they have swamps, they loose, and he shuts down alot of ground dudes in a worst case scenario. So for me it's Bog Wraith all the way :)
This seems more like a forum post than an article, both in terms of writing quality, content and pertinence of issue. Motu and SpikeBoy's pauper articles are far more worth the read.
There's different views in the community from mine, but I don't find these articles useful or interesting. Take it or leave it, as this a free site but in my case I'm going with leave it.
You said:
"and would not be surprised if it were the first card banned in the format"
"This is unlikely but could happen given enough player support."
As espected, I think there are several players that don´t have the same opinion, me included.
Its just another restricted card, among several. And as restricted "mistakes" there are enough
and will be more in Urza Block to suit all hate preferences.
"when we get strip mine they will bitch about that to and mark my words
this is the card that will split the format"
Indeed, that will solve all this problems, until then enjoy the free options.
Maybe they allow 4x strip mine, as they did with necro or flash for some time.
Hope not, just making fun.
Why did you take Goblin Artillery when your only 2 red card were Lava Axes? Earthquake is one of the cards I most want to see in any pack since it is so easily splashed. I think the only card I would take over it is Overrun.
I also really don't get Bog Wraith over Sign in Blood. Bog Wraith is just a Hill Giant most of the time, and Sign in Blood is a great card.
If u really like wall of frost, and since u got 2 copies already, you could try picking alluring siren instead of divination to generate more synergy within you deck. But honestly, I felt that you shouldn't dip into blue in the first place. and that sage owl pick(P3 P4) is waaaaay offffff...
I think Leagues, or the lack of them, is a lot more complicated than just looking at the bottom line. Well I hope it is and I'll explain that in a second.
I used to play Leagues and loved them. They were the only way that my cash got into the MTGO economy when they were running. This was back in the Kamagawa days and I even managed to sell off enough cards to build a block constructed deck and T8 with it. My best ever achievement in MTGO! Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that they were the foundation that my MTGO playing and spending was based on.
Real life happened and I didn't have the time fot MTGO so I stopped playing. When the free time came back I got interested in other online games like WoW & EVE and it wasn't until they started to bore me that I looked again at MTGO. What I came back to was the mess that was V3 and the fact that Leagues were missing but the promise of them coming back.
There is still no sign of Leagues and I personally have given up on them ever coming back. That's a big problem for me as an individual because I'm still trying to find a new 'home' within the game. I've tried a lot of things. I draft a bit but I'm so bad at it that I can't afford to draft much which has the knock on effect that I can't play enough to get better. I play Pauper a bit because that is a fantastic format for people with limited MTGO budgets but I miss not getting to play with the more exciting cards in the uncommon and rare slots. I played classic for a while as my most favourite deck ever has to be goblins. Sadly with FTV:E on the horizon giving me a key goblin card I have to accept that I just can't drop the cash to get a playset which means that it's probably the end of my classic playing adventure. I've dabbled with Commander which is great fun to play but I'm not sure it's enough to keep me collecting.
I beleive that peoples playing experience is based on three things. They need a format that they like to play. They need the cash to play in that format. They need the free time to play. There is a section of the player base who can only get those three things from Leagues, they have no real viable alternative.
I have no facts or proof to back me up, that's true. My feeling that Leagues are just a lower priority than everything else that is going on and it's human nature to promote the 'new' things rather than spending time and money replacing the 'old'. If you look at everything that is going on at the moment, M2010 and the rules changes, The normal release of new sets, the MED sets, the release of the old sets online, the special sets like duel decks, FTV:E. There is just too much going on to find the money and manpower to implement Leagues.
So I don't beleive that a person at WotC is sat there saying that Leagues must not be implemented as there is a potential they would cost the company money. What I do beleive is that there is a person sat there at WotC who has to decide what projects get the limited funding and manpower that's available and Leagues just don't factor high enough on that list to be considered. Sadly I doubt that they ever will.
Ooops. That turned into a rant and is far too long to be a sensible comment. Oh well, can't be bothered to delete it now.
It is fair to say everyone was excited. And while I don't follow classic much since I don't have the cards for it and don't like the brokeness of it all, I do like the articles. All four of you keep them coming as long as it excites you to do so. :)
The last good land-d deck... Well, Loam has DDreams, which is pretty similiar (and works well with Wasteland) to Land D, and Vore was probably the best deck (letting even Tim Aten experience constructed success) for a while in standard (competing with various Zoo and beatdown decks) alongside Solar Flare.
This is partially my fault. I did an "unscheduled" article without talking to Georgy, and we did have almost every Classic writer on the site hit this release.
Now, while we may have overcovered the set, it is going to make a huge impact on the format, and it may well split the format fairly quickly.
For perspective's sake, when Zendikar comes out, 1-2 articles per day will be put out on it, and it won't (likely) even have a big impact on Classic, Ext, and new sets usually take a little while to even change Standard all that much, so this is a set that is huge both in 100C and Classic, so it is going to be heavily covered.
Honestly, I go with Rise from the Grave. At the very worst, it's splashable, which would be fine if you get a few assassinates or doomblades to splash along with it.
Of course, I could be wrong.
Rise from the grave =)
I don't even consider it a debate.
This article was totally refreshing from all the strategy articles recently. I'm glad that Volkan Baga agreed to the interview.
Cheers!
I usually play mono black in Pauper but decided to try these two out last night. I only came across one person playing something similar to the Blue Black while playing the GW, and it destroyed me. All the protection in the world won't save you from 8 sacrifice spells. Also a few games could have gone my way if I'd had Corrupt instead of Tendrils. Progenitus was nice because I see alot of recursion, reanimators and graveyard play. I might even up it to three.
Sorry, I didn't meant to cause all that trouble then. The name's Roman.
Even if we use your definition of aggro, this deck doesn't meet it:
-Persistent damage dealing? Not with 9 "real" creatures (2 of the 13 are 0/7 walls, one a Looter, and the Palace Guard is not generally known for its attacking, especially with only a Pikemaster as relevant power-up).
-Quick, hard-hitting creatures? I'll give you quick, but hard-hitting with a curve that goes 2/1, 1/1, 1/1, 1/1, 1/1, 1/1, 1/1 ... ? Nine of 13 creatures have power of 1 or 0.
-Put pressure? What pressure? The Sprite is outclassed by about a dozen relevant cards. The Flail does help, certainly - it's a fine card, but if you're reliant on one piece of equipment to activate your 1-power beaters, you're going to have to draw like God.
That's without getting into the disconnect between "aggro deck" and "Righteousness" - it's not that the deck is terrible or anything, it's just torn between "aggro" creatures but a "control" curve/spell ratio. It lacks focus, which is more what I wanted to discuss - it seems like forcing W/u is at least worth discussing here, even given the deck won the draft.
On the topic of Artillery, you definitely have a point, and it's very close. Hate-drafting P2P1 seems awkward, given an 8-player (non-team) table, so I discount that more than you do, but they're all good points considering the pack is pretty empty other than the two red cards.
Quick question specifically about P1P1. You don't mention Inferno Elemental as a consideration (though someone else did). I've seen this card have a tremendous impact on the game when it hits the board - yet you didn't mention it. Is it the cost (which, while high, is not prohibitive in limited)?
Classic is not Vintage, especially in the case of Strip Mine. You are doing your entire argument a disservice by commenting that grabbing Strip Mine is the wrong play in Vintage, because it could very easily be the right play in Classic. Sometimes comparisons between the two formats make sense, but in this case you are comparing the resource management of a format that runs up to 10 pieces of the games most powerful artifact acceleration (Lotus, Moxes, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Lotus Petal) with a format that has only the worst two of those.
Also, there will be no bannings - ever. It is not a point worth discussing - it goes beyond the meta game into the very reason for the format's existence - you can play one of everything here. The worst result of which is that people will simply shift over to Legacy (which will come fast enough) and eschew Classic until the format can escape the problems Strip Mine could cause. The best result is that is simply adds another layer to the meta game, but I genuinely fear that the worst result is possible.
How is this not an aggro deck? I've seen aggro decks defined as "a deck which attempts to win the game through persistent, quick damage dealing. Usually these decks will use small, hard-hitting creatures to win the game"
So they may not all be hard hitting, but they are all cheap and put pressure on the opponent to play defense. Matched up with the drafted non creature spells and especially gorgon flail, i think it was a great strategy.
Secondly, I agree with the artillery pick over earthquake. 1)The other drafted cards were looking to get through quick damage, and I would rather pick off my opponents crits to get damage through than wipe away the whole board. 2) In his situation, an artillery would have killed almost every non wall creature in the deck had he let someone else take it.
I'm ok with the Consume Spirit over Mind Shatter pick I think. The Rhox Pikemaster over Blinding Mage, may have been an error in judgement. Thanks for the comment
I don't know Whiffy. I have been consistent 2-2 in M10 sealed for like the past week/week and a half. I just can't get a decent enough pool to go 3-1 or 4-0. I did 3-1 twice and 4-0 once (during prerelease mind you). I've been stuck at 11QP since last week and just can't nail down the last 4 points. Every time I play M10 sealed I get Silence, Mind Spring, Zombie Lord dude, a dual land, Open the Vaults and that stupid Mirror, or Honor of the Pure. I swear to you, I have to scrape the bottom of the card pool to get a serviceable deck together, and then I always run into the dude that has Garruk, Seige Gang, Overrun (x2) elves, spiders, centaurs, bolts, etc... or the dude who has evasion.dek.
Last night I played a GBr deck with Lilliana, some mid-range green / black guys, assassinate, 2 bolts, pyromancer, gorgon flail. I squeaked out my first round and in 2nd round, game 2, by T4 my opp has a phantom warrior and wind drake on the table. I got the pyromancer out and had a giant growth and Lil in hand. I wasn't getting any action and on turn 5 he laid down a snapping drake and I was now at 14. I had to play Lil in order to put Gorgon flail on top of my deck. He kill Lil, I play the flail, kill his snapping drake. He plays a land and passes the turn. I try to take out the phant warrior and HE HARM'S WAY's my pyromancer. Even when I switched my deck to BWr, I could still barely eek out a win. Round 3 I barely win and Round 4 I ran into aforementioned Overrun.dek I went 2-2 last night. No QPs but a least 3 packs toward my next sealed.
I will have to win a Sealed and a Draft tonight (not likely) or try to grind out an LCQ in order to get in the MOCS 5 on Saturday.
Maybe I've just been having a bad run. I'm a decent player but just can't seem to catch a break with these M10 cards.
/rant
Yesterday I was playing against a land destruction deck and he hit me with boil and choke (in the main deck) when I was playing UBr, I still had 4 non-island blue sources in play.
Well i will contact the support for the problems i have. Thanks hamtastic for the url !
strange feeling by reading this comment
Some of your analysis make sense to me, but i dont really understand why you're feeling that DL & Whiffy are "crusading" against Strip Mine. I didnt feel that in any way. I think they are just calling to keep an eye on something that could hugely impact our meta. Wasteland, the little bro of strip mine, was simply the card which had the biggest impact on our meta since it release if you except necro. I think that to advice is a pretty good thing, even if i dont agree all the time with them. Take the time to read some old post on CQ or here, when they talked about the skull before it was restricted. It is a pretty good example of their good insights about our meta.
Actually I agree on that pick. Sign in blood is good, but Bog Wraith is more then a Hill Giant. If they have swamps, they loose, and he shuts down alot of ground dudes in a worst case scenario. So for me it's Bog Wraith all the way :)
This seems more like a forum post than an article, both in terms of writing quality, content and pertinence of issue. Motu and SpikeBoy's pauper articles are far more worth the read.
There's different views in the community from mine, but I don't find these articles useful or interesting. Take it or leave it, as this a free site but in my case I'm going with leave it.
More regarding Strip mine:
You said:
"and would not be surprised if it were the first card banned in the format"
"This is unlikely but could happen given enough player support."
As espected, I think there are several players that don´t have the same opinion, me included.
Its just another restricted card, among several. And as restricted "mistakes" there are enough
and will be more in Urza Block to suit all hate preferences.
"when we get strip mine they will bitch about that to and mark my words
this is the card that will split the format"
Indeed, that will solve all this problems, until then enjoy the free options.
Maybe they allow 4x strip mine, as they did with necro or flash for some time.
Hope not, just making fun.
Congratulations on the article.
Why did you take Goblin Artillery when your only 2 red card were Lava Axes? Earthquake is one of the cards I most want to see in any pack since it is so easily splashed. I think the only card I would take over it is Overrun.
I also really don't get Bog Wraith over Sign in Blood. Bog Wraith is just a Hill Giant most of the time, and Sign in Blood is a great card.
If u really like wall of frost, and since u got 2 copies already, you could try picking alluring siren instead of divination to generate more synergy within you deck. But honestly, I felt that you shouldn't dip into blue in the first place. and that sage owl pick(P3 P4) is waaaaay offffff...
I think Leagues, or the lack of them, is a lot more complicated than just looking at the bottom line. Well I hope it is and I'll explain that in a second.
I used to play Leagues and loved them. They were the only way that my cash got into the MTGO economy when they were running. This was back in the Kamagawa days and I even managed to sell off enough cards to build a block constructed deck and T8 with it. My best ever achievement in MTGO! Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that they were the foundation that my MTGO playing and spending was based on.
Real life happened and I didn't have the time fot MTGO so I stopped playing. When the free time came back I got interested in other online games like WoW & EVE and it wasn't until they started to bore me that I looked again at MTGO. What I came back to was the mess that was V3 and the fact that Leagues were missing but the promise of them coming back.
There is still no sign of Leagues and I personally have given up on them ever coming back. That's a big problem for me as an individual because I'm still trying to find a new 'home' within the game. I've tried a lot of things. I draft a bit but I'm so bad at it that I can't afford to draft much which has the knock on effect that I can't play enough to get better. I play Pauper a bit because that is a fantastic format for people with limited MTGO budgets but I miss not getting to play with the more exciting cards in the uncommon and rare slots. I played classic for a while as my most favourite deck ever has to be goblins. Sadly with FTV:E on the horizon giving me a key goblin card I have to accept that I just can't drop the cash to get a playset which means that it's probably the end of my classic playing adventure. I've dabbled with Commander which is great fun to play but I'm not sure it's enough to keep me collecting.
I beleive that peoples playing experience is based on three things. They need a format that they like to play. They need the cash to play in that format. They need the free time to play. There is a section of the player base who can only get those three things from Leagues, they have no real viable alternative.
I have no facts or proof to back me up, that's true. My feeling that Leagues are just a lower priority than everything else that is going on and it's human nature to promote the 'new' things rather than spending time and money replacing the 'old'. If you look at everything that is going on at the moment, M2010 and the rules changes, The normal release of new sets, the MED sets, the release of the old sets online, the special sets like duel decks, FTV:E. There is just too much going on to find the money and manpower to implement Leagues.
So I don't beleive that a person at WotC is sat there saying that Leagues must not be implemented as there is a potential they would cost the company money. What I do beleive is that there is a person sat there at WotC who has to decide what projects get the limited funding and manpower that's available and Leagues just don't factor high enough on that list to be considered. Sadly I doubt that they ever will.
Ooops. That turned into a rant and is far too long to be a sensible comment. Oh well, can't be bothered to delete it now.
It is fair to say everyone was excited. And while I don't follow classic much since I don't have the cards for it and don't like the brokeness of it all, I do like the articles. All four of you keep them coming as long as it excites you to do so. :)
Me too! :P
The last good land-d deck... Well, Loam has DDreams, which is pretty similiar (and works well with Wasteland) to Land D, and Vore was probably the best deck (letting even Tim Aten experience constructed success) for a while in standard (competing with various Zoo and beatdown decks) alongside Solar Flare.
This is partially my fault. I did an "unscheduled" article without talking to Georgy, and we did have almost every Classic writer on the site hit this release.
Now, while we may have overcovered the set, it is going to make a huge impact on the format, and it may well split the format fairly quickly.
For perspective's sake, when Zendikar comes out, 1-2 articles per day will be put out on it, and it won't (likely) even have a big impact on Classic, Ext, and new sets usually take a little while to even change Standard all that much, so this is a set that is huge both in 100C and Classic, so it is going to be heavily covered.