If I had a few more mana fixers I would have gone 3 colors as my main deck. I need to give Awakener Druid another chance. I'm not sure I played with it fearing quick removal. However, everytime I've faced it down, I thought it was a major obstacle.
Cudgel Troll is worth going green here. I'm not sold on the Behemoth from a cost stand point. Rise from the Grave though, that is something you want in your main deck. Give it another chance.
Oh, no, those are all of the Blue cards I received in my pool. For the quantity, they are mostly playable. I just wish I had something to back them up.
It would have been lucky to get 2-2, it got me 1-3 as I recall.
Ephemeron is better in straight control decks than aggro-control IMHO. Aggro-control wants to build a quick board presence and protect it, and ephemeron doesn't really fit in that plan.
Replies to comments are offset: I was indeed replying to the first comment, as you can see. Is it not reasonable that an anonymous user asking for a change of picture put their own picture up first?
What's your take on this Illusion card in the deck? A suspend 3 version of Illusionary Servant doesn't seem amazing, but:
It is generally speaking safer to tap out on turn 2 over turn 3;
Errant isn't vulnerable the turn it is cast so the opponent can't just respond with a turn 2-3 innocent blood, beating daze;
A 4/4 ends the game two turns sooner, so the suspend time loss isn't a complete failure;
Late game, you have the choice of straight up casting Errant;
While denying tendrils is a nice perk, I see Illusionary's sacrifice passive ability as a huge net minus -- in particular, thrill of the hunt becomes a rather devastating removal threat. Additionally, there are probably as many situations where you would want to protect the creature with a defensive unsummon as there are situations where you willingly let a tendrils resolve on your best blocker/beater.
The biggest downside to Errant is that it is painful to Ninjutsu, but how often will this occur given the tremendous benefits of using the ability on Spellstutter/Pestermite?
I play something similar in Standard with 4x Cryptic Commands, 4x Putrid Leeches and with 4x Great Sable Stag and 4x Anathemancer in the sideboard. I don't play Enigma Sphinx in that deck though. And yes, I also have Ajani in that deck but I don't have Uril in the list. The rest is almost the same as seen above.
I don't remember the exact mana base now but it is something with 12x Vivids, some hybrid lands, Reflecting Pools and Exotic Orchards.
The deck does well against the field but is not as good as I first thought it would be. So I simply switched to the Merfolk :)).
This list looks really fun and very strong. I made a mock up of it that was standard legal on MTGO and won a couple matches, but I'm sure it's not optimized. What type of mana base would you use if this was for Standard? Any different card choices. I love the idea of using Uril since he can't be targeted. I also used Ajani Vengeant as a one of in my list and he won some games for me (switched in a few Naya Charm to get him back).
I think that this is a really strong write-up on Fish in Pauper. The deck that you presented is probably among the strongest builds of its kind and it's nice to get an explanation to every cards use. I can't believe you've tuned it all the way down to "I think Ponder might be a 23'rd land, since the deck really wants 22.5 lands". That just made me smile. I agree with you on Ponder, Brainstorm and the like. I tested each of them and was simply unimpressed with both. I also tested Bonesplitter and noticed a significantly faster clock on games where I turn 2 bonesplitter with daze backup. However, I like having more control options to deal with that crypt rats that slipped through turn 3 on the draw, or that tendrils which you mentioned. I think Unsummon could serve as a possible cantidate. Anyway, Great Article. I personally rank Fish in my top 5 fav. decks to play, so it's great to see an in-depth.
My problem has so far been running enough removal/control against the already fast and versatile Vanguard decks. I've ran things such as Wort, Boggart Auntie and Warren Weirding with Unmake and light red damage but I can't seem to get the deck streamlined enough to take on the better vanguard decks.
I tried mill decks and I played against many others who also tried it. But unfortunately at the competitive level this strategy doesn't work. You may have a lot of fun with it in the casual room and win more often than you lose but the tournament scene really is cruel.
I recently played against one and I clearly remember that I won the first game just when I had 4 cards in my deck. Cascade creatures are really strong and with the direct damage back up as in Electrolyze, I managed to win that first game. And the second game didn't last very long as I played a 4th turn Thought Hemorrhage removing Glimpse the Unthinkable.
The key here was actually Esper Charm. Normally I use it to draw cards but in those 2 games I used it to make my opponent discard two cards. And just because he wanted to keep his mill cards in his hand, he had to discard precious removal cards and that ment that my beasts had a clear path to my opponent.
I don't want to discourage you but so far I haven't seen any Tier-1 Mill decks. But as I said, it is a fine deck for casual entertaintment.
The fact is it's hard to be innovative all the time. While this deck is out there, I did not see any real strong write ups of it, so I decided to do my own. At the same time, I wanted to go over the reasoning behind my decisions and why I feel cards like Ponder and Brainstorm are wrong for the deck.
No bashing was done- I appreciate critical readers.
I liked the article but at the end the deck you built seems just another variant of one that I've seen many many times already playing in the Pauper weekend challenges, and the writeup didn't sound much of a "Pauper Fae is out there already, but here is how I run my own version".
12+x fae focusing on Spellstutter to counter stuff, normal counterspell package, ninja for free cards and other drawing/thinning sources seems like nothing new IMO.
Thank you for the writeup and I didn't want to just sit back and bash your article, but it just seemed that all this has been around for awhile is all.
Interesting article I recently played against a Cascade Milling deck with no creatures it was full of cascade spells, milling spells, Identity Crisis, and tons of removal. Just wondering how competitive that deck would be in tourney.
Affinity is not a bye, but it do struggle on racing the combo. Echoing Truth is awesomelly good against Empty the Warrens, but they can run Prospectors and other sac'ing goblins. And besides pyroblast for disrupting their draw spells, affinity has a hard time beating a grapeshot kill.
The kicker is less relevant than the Squadron's ability to block in the early game.
When you talk about maxing out the Ninjas, do you mean with Mistblade Shinobi? I'm running the full four Deep Hours.
The deck might benefit from more counters, but at the same time, only has so many slots to work with. I could see cutting some number of bounce spells for counters, but I would not advocate this.
Replacing Daze with Force Spike is not the way I would go. With Daze, you don't really have to fear tapping out the same way to save your guy from removal. You can just run a dude out there and steal a turn with Daze. Force Spike is actually the opposite on some metrics, as you have to wait a turn to be able to protect your guy. In these cases, I would run Rune Snag instead of Daze and alter the play style to be more defensive, so as to best protect your creatures.
Hello spikeboy. I really liked contents of the article, as a long time fan of fish and skies strategy. But at first glance, there is some things I felt your list lacks. For example, Playing only Daze, Counterspell and Spellstutter as counterspells. I know this is a aggrocontrol oriented but it can certainly benefit from cards like Memory Lapse, Mana Leak. And for people who doesn't like to pay 10 tix for each daze, you can easily play force spike for almost the same effect.
The other thing that bothers me is the couple of Faerie Squadrons, is the kicker option really that relevant? Also could the Ninjas be maxed out?
Nice article I was thinking of making a deck using Electrolyze to take out the Stillmoon's. I'm going to have to make it now youve inspired me, I've not played K-scope in ages.
Yah, the "Tireless Tribe" designation spawned exclusively from observations in limited play. I can't tell you how many turn-one Tireless Tribes I saw over the course of all the OTJ leagues I was in...
If I had a few more mana fixers I would have gone 3 colors as my main deck. I need to give Awakener Druid another chance. I'm not sure I played with it fearing quick removal. However, everytime I've faced it down, I thought it was a major obstacle.
That was the dilemma, Serra, Pacifism and Blinding Mage, or Green's creatrures.
Cudgel Troll is worth going green here. I'm not sold on the Behemoth from a cost stand point. Rise from the Grave though, that is something you want in your main deck. Give it another chance.
Oh, no, those are all of the Blue cards I received in my pool. For the quantity, they are mostly playable. I just wish I had something to back them up.
It would have been lucky to get 2-2, it got me 1-3 as I recall.
The 3 decks I built from this pool were Bw, Bg, and Bwg. I was curious if it was just a poor pool, or if my M2010 sealed skills needed sharpening.
Ephemeron is better in straight control decks than aggro-control IMHO. Aggro-control wants to build a quick board presence and protect it, and ephemeron doesn't really fit in that plan.
Replies to comments are offset: I was indeed replying to the first comment, as you can see. Is it not reasonable that an anonymous user asking for a change of picture put their own picture up first?
What's your take on this Illusion card in the deck? A suspend 3 version of Illusionary Servant doesn't seem amazing, but:
It is generally speaking safer to tap out on turn 2 over turn 3;
Errant isn't vulnerable the turn it is cast so the opponent can't just respond with a turn 2-3 innocent blood, beating daze;
A 4/4 ends the game two turns sooner, so the suspend time loss isn't a complete failure;
Late game, you have the choice of straight up casting Errant;
While denying tendrils is a nice perk, I see Illusionary's sacrifice passive ability as a huge net minus -- in particular, thrill of the hunt becomes a rather devastating removal threat. Additionally, there are probably as many situations where you would want to protect the creature with a defensive unsummon as there are situations where you willingly let a tendrils resolve on your best blocker/beater.
The biggest downside to Errant is that it is painful to Ninjutsu, but how often will this occur given the tremendous benefits of using the ability on Spellstutter/Pestermite?
I play something similar in Standard with 4x Cryptic Commands, 4x Putrid Leeches and with 4x Great Sable Stag and 4x Anathemancer in the sideboard. I don't play Enigma Sphinx in that deck though. And yes, I also have Ajani in that deck but I don't have Uril in the list. The rest is almost the same as seen above.
I don't remember the exact mana base now but it is something with 12x Vivids, some hybrid lands, Reflecting Pools and Exotic Orchards.
The deck does well against the field but is not as good as I first thought it would be. So I simply switched to the Merfolk :)).
LE
This list looks really fun and very strong. I made a mock up of it that was standard legal on MTGO and won a couple matches, but I'm sure it's not optimized. What type of mana base would you use if this was for Standard? Any different card choices. I love the idea of using Uril since he can't be targeted. I also used Ajani Vengeant as a one of in my list and he won some games for me (switched in a few Naya Charm to get him back).
I think that this is a really strong write-up on Fish in Pauper. The deck that you presented is probably among the strongest builds of its kind and it's nice to get an explanation to every cards use. I can't believe you've tuned it all the way down to "I think Ponder might be a 23'rd land, since the deck really wants 22.5 lands". That just made me smile. I agree with you on Ponder, Brainstorm and the like. I tested each of them and was simply unimpressed with both. I also tested Bonesplitter and noticed a significantly faster clock on games where I turn 2 bonesplitter with daze backup. However, I like having more control options to deal with that crypt rats that slipped through turn 3 on the draw, or that tendrils which you mentioned. I think Unsummon could serve as a possible cantidate. Anyway, Great Article. I personally rank Fish in my top 5 fav. decks to play, so it's great to see an in-depth.
I'm messing around with a Vampire Nocturnus Prowl Rogue deck atm. Adding things like:
Auntie's Snitch
Earwig Squad
Frogtosser
Stinkdrinker
Oona's Blackguard
Inkfathom
Bitterblossom
My problem has so far been running enough removal/control against the already fast and versatile Vanguard decks. I've ran things such as Wort, Boggart Auntie and Warren Weirding with Unmake and light red damage but I can't seem to get the deck streamlined enough to take on the better vanguard decks.
RagMan
I tried mill decks and I played against many others who also tried it. But unfortunately at the competitive level this strategy doesn't work. You may have a lot of fun with it in the casual room and win more often than you lose but the tournament scene really is cruel.
I recently played against one and I clearly remember that I won the first game just when I had 4 cards in my deck. Cascade creatures are really strong and with the direct damage back up as in Electrolyze, I managed to win that first game. And the second game didn't last very long as I played a 4th turn Thought Hemorrhage removing Glimpse the Unthinkable.
The key here was actually Esper Charm. Normally I use it to draw cards but in those 2 games I used it to make my opponent discard two cards. And just because he wanted to keep his mill cards in his hand, he had to discard precious removal cards and that ment that my beasts had a clear path to my opponent.
I don't want to discourage you but so far I haven't seen any Tier-1 Mill decks. But as I said, it is a fine deck for casual entertaintment.
LE
The fact is it's hard to be innovative all the time. While this deck is out there, I did not see any real strong write ups of it, so I decided to do my own. At the same time, I wanted to go over the reasoning behind my decisions and why I feel cards like Ponder and Brainstorm are wrong for the deck.
No bashing was done- I appreciate critical readers.
-Alex
Man, the decks semmed poor, that would be my Master of the Wild Hunt for example:
1 Avatar - Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Overrun
4 Gauntlet of Power
2 Rites of Flourishing
4 Nature's Lore
2 Kodama's Reach
4 Horn of Greed
4 Howl of the Night Pack
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Rampant Growth
4 Harmonize
4 Vernal Bloom
1 Dryad Harbor
24 Forest
I liked the article but at the end the deck you built seems just another variant of one that I've seen many many times already playing in the Pauper weekend challenges, and the writeup didn't sound much of a "Pauper Fae is out there already, but here is how I run my own version".
12+x fae focusing on Spellstutter to counter stuff, normal counterspell package, ninja for free cards and other drawing/thinning sources seems like nothing new IMO.
Thank you for the writeup and I didn't want to just sit back and bash your article, but it just seemed that all this has been around for awhile is all.
RagMan
Interesting article I recently played against a Cascade Milling deck with no creatures it was full of cascade spells, milling spells, Identity Crisis, and tons of removal. Just wondering how competitive that deck would be in tourney.
Cascade Milling - supposition
X4 Bituminous Blast
X4 Deny Reality
X4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
X2 Memory Sluice
X4 Mind Funeral
X3 Thought Hemorrhage
X3 Malestrom Pulse
X3 Void
X4 Unmake
X2 Identiy Crisis
X2 Veinfire Borderpost
X2 Mistvein Borderpost
24 land
Affinity is not a bye, but it do struggle on racing the combo. Echoing Truth is awesomelly good against Empty the Warrens, but they can run Prospectors and other sac'ing goblins. And besides pyroblast for disrupting their draw spells, affinity has a hard time beating a grapeshot kill.
The kicker is less relevant than the Squadron's ability to block in the early game.
When you talk about maxing out the Ninjas, do you mean with Mistblade Shinobi? I'm running the full four Deep Hours.
The deck might benefit from more counters, but at the same time, only has so many slots to work with. I could see cutting some number of bounce spells for counters, but I would not advocate this.
Replacing Daze with Force Spike is not the way I would go. With Daze, you don't really have to fear tapping out the same way to save your guy from removal. You can just run a dude out there and steal a turn with Daze. Force Spike is actually the opposite on some metrics, as you have to wait a turn to be able to protect your guy. In these cases, I would run Rune Snag instead of Daze and alter the play style to be more defensive, so as to best protect your creatures.
-Alex
Hello spikeboy. I really liked contents of the article, as a long time fan of fish and skies strategy. But at first glance, there is some things I felt your list lacks. For example, Playing only Daze, Counterspell and Spellstutter as counterspells. I know this is a aggrocontrol oriented but it can certainly benefit from cards like Memory Lapse, Mana Leak. And for people who doesn't like to pay 10 tix for each daze, you can easily play force spike for almost the same effect.
The other thing that bothers me is the couple of Faerie Squadrons, is the kicker option really that relevant? Also could the Ninjas be maxed out?
Of course AJ was replying to the first comment.
And hey, I may change my "scary" picture but that will not make any differences because... well... uhm... I AM scary!!!
Joking aside, unfortunately this is the only picture I have in the required sizes so this one has to stay.
And thanks everybody for the comments so far.
LE
He was replying to the first comment. I think.
Nice article I was thinking of making a deck using Electrolyze to take out the Stillmoon's. I'm going to have to make it now youve inspired me, I've not played K-scope in ages.
Yah, the "Tireless Tribe" designation spawned exclusively from observations in limited play. I can't tell you how many turn-one Tireless Tribes I saw over the course of all the OTJ leagues I was in...