I think what elrogos was saying was how about Phage the Untouchable, a little expensive at 4BBBB but if it hits the table it should be a win whether you swing for the victory or your opponent kills it and then it recurs onto their side causing the loss condition to trigger.
Maybe i am boring (cause i know, that's a boring and "see so many times" thing) but why not sticking 1 or 2 Page in the deck? Just in case, uh, you need a fast victory...
However the deck is nice, the WB list too, and the idea of vampiric link on the liege can be useful.
One thing that is useless, as it was in the nacatl deck, is grave pact, too mana intensive, it's not that great, without it you have not to plunge in claws of gix etc.
I would fill those 4 slots with more removal or life draining/gaining.
Last thing: against decks with few creatures? that's not a great deal if you play this without old Phage.
One card you could try is Gleancrawler. If your creatures die during your turn, the Gleancrawler will trigger at the same time as the Whispers, so you can make sure the Gleancrawler trigger resolves first. Of course if it dies during your opponent's turn, you've got a problem. If you wanted to move away from white, Vampiric Link on the Liege is pretty cool, and Sengir Autocrat makes tokens the old school way. If I went that way, I would go mono black, throw in some House Guards and some Tendrils of Corruption to keep me alive until I got going. And some scrying sheets and coldsteel hearts.
When you challenge someone in any "/Join <insertrandomroomhere>" , even if you are on the main splash screen, your matches will be watchable from the "Anything goes" room from my experiences. Also if you are the challenger and are in any other room your matches will be viewable from there.
Honestly, if you are afraid of letting secret tech out, your best bet is just to go to the Anything goes room and make your matches unwatchable.
Great job, and I agree completely with runeliger, competent playtest partners is key. A lot of misconceptions about certain matchups stem from incorrectly testing them. This is where your statement of backing up play mistakes comes in handy in paper, but isn't nearly as easy in MTGO. In MTGO you really want to find a good player for the deck you want to play test as that will give you the most accurate results.
Literally hands down the most informative article on PureMTGO I've ever read.
However, I'd like the mention for the gauntlet testing, MAKE SURE YOU HAVE DECENT PLAYTEST PARTNERS PILOTING THE DECK! I've seen countless times where people disregard a matchup as being "70/30 and 60/40" (meaning basically in their favor), but that was a result of their problems with who they're playtesting against. Things happen like this all the time. The first two examples that come to mind is the belief by some people who play classic that Threshold has a great matchup against the Red burn deck (FYI, it doesn't) and a PTQer of the previous block constructed who believes that Pickles destroys UB teachings hands down. Both misconceptions come from a lack of a good partner. The classic players obviously are rather good at thershold, but don't have a good red burn player to test against, and the PTQer who pilots Pickles hasn't faced a good UB teachings player in their playtesting.
Ideally, you want to test against Omnichord with LSV, Enduring Ideal against Andre Mueller, GW aggro against PV, but that's not happening, so you need to find the next best thing. Make sure that your playtest partners are not only good friends who will help with the process, but also are great players too.
Oh also, being involved in a group where your cardpools can be shared is priceless (especially if you think Orim's chant would be tech in your new deck...)
Great article! Something that all players of any level could really use. Bonus points for the Packers reference.
I think the part about gauntleting is very important. So often in PDC, you see people bringing whatever they feel like regardless of current metagame trends. Additionally, some players will so heavily metagame against a good match up that they weaken their sideboards against their poor matchups. Great job of bringing this information to the MTGO audience.
yeah it is a little touchy in 1v1. i built mine for ffa so i always had the BD mulligan to help me not get mana screwed if this was 1v1 id prob be running about 18-19.
On the topic of momir I love the format and agree that the fact that there is a limited supply of the avatar frusterating. it is for the most part the cheapest format to play $13 for the avatar is not that much but still as we get further and further aways from the time it was distributed it can be expected that the price of entry into this format to increase. the solution i would like to see would be in the place of the top 8 draft that momir doesn't run (or i guess any torney at this point) tat the bonus prize for getting to the top 8 would be an avatar. wizards could even have some fun with it as an alternative art avatar or make it an avatar that could only be used in the format (only in momir not in vanguard) and one that doesnn't change the aperance or avatar in the game that way the origanals prices will some what be maintained.
That sounds like a cool deck. I wish I'd thought of the Strength in Numbers combination. Looks like I will have to build a GW version of the deck, too.
I'd be surprised if too many people actually redeemed IPA around August 06, actually. I think that what happened there was that the perceived value of the cards dropped and that likely should have been one of the many indicators that those cards were artificially over valued at the time.
OK..... Please don't make poor assumptions that I only goldfished this deck. I have played multiple variations of it against ACTUAL players WITH sideboarding.
I'll say it again, you don't need or want Tolarian Winds. It's a great card but, it's not for this deck. Anyone who has played the actual version of the deck in question should know this. Ichorid and Flame-Kin Zealot are a huge part of this deck. You call these cards unnecessary fluff, why? Ichorid can take those unusable Street Wraiths in the graveyard along with Putrid Imps and Golgari Thugs as you want to dredge the Trolls and the other Imp anyway. Then you can sac Ichorid to a Therapy before it goes into the graveyard to itself and still get your 2/2 Zombie(s) if BfB(s) is(are) in the grave. Hey, you get them anyway at your EOT! Why not run Ichorid? Not to mention he comes into play for 'free' and is a 3/1 with haste. You want more non-token creatures in play anyway to sacrifice to Dread Return for the Zealot. Think about it this way: You get a Narc in play with a Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe(from the newer version, not my posted list) and an Ichorid which you brought into play removing a Wraith and sac them to a Dread Return. Let's also say you have 2 BfB's in the grave. You'll get 6 2/2 Zombies alone from sacrificing those 3 creatures. Now let's say you Returned a Zealot with the Dread. Now you have 7 3/3 creatures with HASTE. If my math is still good that's 21 damage in the same turn the creatures come into play.
I'm not going to say it wins consistently on turn 2 because, I haven't played the newer version. Although turns 3-4 are pretty consistent against actual players as well as fishing. Say what you want about the Zealot being a 'win more' card but, it's actually just a win card. Your deck is entirely different from the decks we run anyway so I don't even know why I bother.
You just looked at my decklist and automatically dismissed it. You then proceed to put me down by telling me to try my decklist in a tournament instead of fishing? I thought I explained to you pretty well why I had certain cards in my decklist without insulting you. It's ashame that you couldn't show me the same respect.
PS. I also made a mistake in my decklist, the Coliseum was a Riftstone Portal.
I'm surprised that IPA prices when down when repetition was turned off. By that point it was clear that redeeming IPA was quite a foolhardy endeavor as it was worth much more online then in paper.
Yep that old channel/fireball was hell. Thanks for your points you brought up, and thanks for showing me the light in this deck combo, sure beats me useing mesmeric orb to try to deck myself. :)
Yep as I mentioned in the adding cards section there just in there so a guy not used to this type of play don't deck themselves. It is alot faster without them.
Heck yes , that deck looks like it rocks ,so many options. Yep I'd say you tore up some stuff with that weapon. And with the first comment I'm a big boy I can take it . You are right as I look at it when I was testing this deck more often than not, lands is what screwed me(having to many) but with the online shuffler I get such a bad feeling when I get below a certain number of lands in a deck.
Didnt realize you were trying to keep it budget so sorry if i was a little harsh. but here is the real list if anyone wants it for tourney purposes. this is the PRE winning list. SSG is one of those cards that it depends if you like it or not. i prefer to not run it.
2 Cabal Therapy 1 Carrion Feeder 3 Cephalid Illusionist 4 Chrome Mox 4 City of Brass 1 Devouring Strossus 2 Gaea's Blessing 2 Gemstone Mine 4 Living Wish 1 Mindslicer 1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds 4 Shuko 4 Steelshaper's Gift 4 Tarnished Citadel 3 Tendo Ice Bridge 3 Bridge from Below 4 Dread Return 2 Gemstone Caverns 4 Narcomoeba 4 Pact of Negation 1 Stalking Vengeance 3 Vedalken AEthermage
I think what elrogos was saying was how about Phage the Untouchable, a little expensive at 4BBBB but if it hits the table it should be a win whether you swing for the victory or your opponent kills it and then it recurs onto their side causing the loss condition to trigger.
Just a thought
and if you are going to go the token route, Skeltal Vampire could be considered as well right?
Maybe i am boring (cause i know, that's a boring and "see so many times" thing) but why not sticking 1 or 2 Page in the deck? Just in case, uh, you need a fast victory...
However the deck is nice, the WB list too, and the idea of vampiric link on the liege can be useful.
One thing that is useless, as it was in the nacatl deck, is grave pact, too mana intensive, it's not that great, without it you have not to plunge in claws of gix etc.
I would fill those 4 slots with more removal or life draining/gaining.
Last thing: against decks with few creatures? that's not a great deal if you play this without old Phage.
One card you could try is Gleancrawler. If your creatures die during your turn, the Gleancrawler will trigger at the same time as the Whispers, so you can make sure the Gleancrawler trigger resolves first. Of course if it dies during your opponent's turn, you've got a problem. If you wanted to move away from white, Vampiric Link on the Liege is pretty cool, and Sengir Autocrat makes tokens the old school way. If I went that way, I would go mono black, throw in some House Guards and some Tendrils of Corruption to keep me alive until I got going. And some scrying sheets and coldsteel hearts.
I can only echo every one elses comments; That was prolly one of the bedst damn MTGO articles I have ever read, across all the major websites.
I don't know what Heath is paying you but it's not enough. That was some serious quality writing.
When you challenge someone in any "/Join <insertrandomroomhere>" , even if you are on the main splash screen, your matches will be watchable from the "Anything goes" room from my experiences. Also if you are the challenger and are in any other room your matches will be viewable from there.
Honestly, if you are afraid of letting secret tech out, your best bet is just to go to the Anything goes room and make your matches unwatchable.
Great job, and I agree completely with runeliger, competent playtest partners is key. A lot of misconceptions about certain matchups stem from incorrectly testing them. This is where your statement of backing up play mistakes comes in handy in paper, but isn't nearly as easy in MTGO. In MTGO you really want to find a good player for the deck you want to play test as that will give you the most accurate results.
Literally hands down the most informative article on PureMTGO I've ever read.
However, I'd like the mention for the gauntlet testing, MAKE SURE YOU HAVE DECENT PLAYTEST PARTNERS PILOTING THE DECK! I've seen countless times where people disregard a matchup as being "70/30 and 60/40" (meaning basically in their favor), but that was a result of their problems with who they're playtesting against. Things happen like this all the time. The first two examples that come to mind is the belief by some people who play classic that Threshold has a great matchup against the Red burn deck (FYI, it doesn't) and a PTQer of the previous block constructed who believes that Pickles destroys UB teachings hands down. Both misconceptions come from a lack of a good partner. The classic players obviously are rather good at thershold, but don't have a good red burn player to test against, and the PTQer who pilots Pickles hasn't faced a good UB teachings player in their playtesting.
Ideally, you want to test against Omnichord with LSV, Enduring Ideal against Andre Mueller, GW aggro against PV, but that's not happening, so you need to find the next best thing. Make sure that your playtest partners are not only good friends who will help with the process, but also are great players too.
Oh also, being involved in a group where your cardpools can be shared is priceless (especially if you think Orim's chant would be tech in your new deck...)
Remarkably few comments this time. Anyone?
Great article! Something that all players of any level could really use. Bonus points for the Packers reference.
I think the part about gauntleting is very important. So often in PDC, you see people bringing whatever they feel like regardless of current metagame trends. Additionally, some players will so heavily metagame against a good match up that they weaken their sideboards against their poor matchups. Great job of bringing this information to the MTGO audience.
-Alex
yeah it is a little touchy in 1v1. i built mine for ffa so i always had the BD mulligan to help me not get mana screwed if this was 1v1 id prob be running about 18-19.
Great Article!
On the topic of momir I love the format and agree that the fact that there is a limited supply of the avatar frusterating. it is for the most part the cheapest format to play $13 for the avatar is not that much but still as we get further and further aways from the time it was distributed it can be expected that the price of entry into this format to increase. the solution i would like to see would be in the place of the top 8 draft that momir doesn't run (or i guess any torney at this point) tat the bonus prize for getting to the top 8 would be an avatar. wizards could even have some fun with it as an alternative art avatar or make it an avatar that could only be used in the format (only in momir not in vanguard) and one that doesnn't change the aperance or avatar in the game that way the origanals prices will some what be maintained.
That sounds like a cool deck. I wish I'd thought of the Strength in Numbers combination. Looks like I will have to build a GW version of the deck, too.
If that works, I'd hate to take advantage of the bug. I'd rather provide another sacrifice outlet.
I'd be surprised if too many people actually redeemed IPA around August 06, actually. I think that what happened there was that the perceived value of the cards dropped and that likely should have been one of the many indicators that those cards were artificially over valued at the time.
OK..... Please don't make poor assumptions that I only goldfished this deck. I have played multiple variations of it against ACTUAL players WITH sideboarding.
I'll say it again, you don't need or want Tolarian Winds. It's a great card but, it's not for this deck. Anyone who has played the actual version of the deck in question should know this. Ichorid and Flame-Kin Zealot are a huge part of this deck. You call these cards unnecessary fluff, why? Ichorid can take those unusable Street Wraiths in the graveyard along with Putrid Imps and Golgari Thugs as you want to dredge the Trolls and the other Imp anyway. Then you can sac Ichorid to a Therapy before it goes into the graveyard to itself and still get your 2/2 Zombie(s) if BfB(s) is(are) in the grave. Hey, you get them anyway at your EOT! Why not run Ichorid? Not to mention he comes into play for 'free' and is a 3/1 with haste. You want more non-token creatures in play anyway to sacrifice to Dread Return for the Zealot. Think about it this way: You get a Narc in play with a Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe(from the newer version, not my posted list) and an Ichorid which you brought into play removing a Wraith and sac them to a Dread Return. Let's also say you have 2 BfB's in the grave. You'll get 6 2/2 Zombies alone from sacrificing those 3 creatures. Now let's say you Returned a Zealot with the Dread. Now you have 7 3/3 creatures with HASTE. If my math is still good that's 21 damage in the same turn the creatures come into play.
I'm not going to say it wins consistently on turn 2 because, I haven't played the newer version. Although turns 3-4 are pretty consistent against actual players as well as fishing. Say what you want about the Zealot being a 'win more' card but, it's actually just a win card. Your deck is entirely different from the decks we run anyway so I don't even know why I bother.
You just looked at my decklist and automatically dismissed it. You then proceed to put me down by telling me to try my decklist in a tournament instead of fishing? I thought I explained to you pretty well why I had certain cards in my decklist without insulting you. It's ashame that you couldn't show me the same respect.
PS. I also made a mistake in my decklist, the Coliseum was a Riftstone Portal.
I'm surprised that IPA prices when down when repetition was turned off. By that point it was clear that redeeming IPA was quite a foolhardy endeavor as it was worth much more online then in paper.
Has Tarmogoyf been fixed to actually pump sututured like it's supposed to rather than just giving it a 0/1 ?
last time I check it wasn't =P but that was a little while ago
The list I suggested was more suited for the Tournament room, I love the ideas of your deck list though.
Are you serious, it still does not work? That is terrible, I would say until it starts to work just replace hte goys with cloudscrappers and such.
Yep that old channel/fireball was hell. Thanks for your points you brought up, and thanks for showing me the light in this deck combo, sure beats me useing mesmeric orb to try to deck myself. :)
Yep as I mentioned in the adding cards section there just in there so a guy not used to this type of play don't deck themselves. It is alot faster without them.
Heck yes , that deck looks like it rocks ,so many options. Yep I'd say you tore up some stuff with that weapon. And with the first comment I'm a big boy I can take it . You are right as I look at it when I was testing this deck more often than not, lands is what screwed me(having to many) but with the online shuffler I get such a bad feeling when I get below a certain number of lands in a deck.
Didnt realize you were trying to keep it budget so sorry if i was a little harsh. but here is the real list if anyone wants it for tourney purposes. this is the PRE winning list. SSG is one of those cards that it depends if you like it or not. i prefer to not run it.
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Carrion Feeder
3 Cephalid Illusionist
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
1 Devouring Strossus
2 Gaea's Blessing
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Living Wish
1 Mindslicer
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4 Shuko
4 Steelshaper's Gift
4 Tarnished Citadel
3 Tendo Ice Bridge
3 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
2 Gemstone Caverns
4 Narcomoeba
4 Pact of Negation
1 Stalking Vengeance
3 Vedalken AEthermage
Sideboard
1 Cephalid Illusionist
1 Entrails Feaster
1 Phantom Tiger
1 Stalking Stones
1 Trinket Mage
1 Watery Grave
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Riftsweeper
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Stalking Vengeance
1 Thallid Germinator
1 Tolaria West
1 Urborg Syphon-Mage
1 Urza's Factory
1 Vedalken AEthermage
the sidboard is only like 5 cards and 10 randoms that i never use.