i am the one who has won 4 of those PE's with it and originally brought stalking+carion feeder to PRE's the verson looks good but it has too many lands my verson ran 16 lands with no ssg (4x city 4x tarnished 4x gemstone mine 4x tendo) and ran 4x wishes they are insane in this deck . t1 wish into t2 combo happens more than youd think. and you do only need 1x stalking to go off cause if your opp has enough grave hate to take out stalking before you revive it they prob have enough to just take out the narcoes. also you forgot cabal therapy which has been a big part of the ones winning the PRE's. all in all your decklist seems to be build to go t1 but has no staying power vs anything that could stop you. 4x pact has shown up in almost every of the winning versons as they change this. and 1x carion feeder makes the combo completely infinite.
/me sigh. Yanno guys , and espically Josh who figured to "suggest" the sutured/cloudscraper cookie cutter that's been so over played its not funny when frankly only cuts it in 1v1 and sometimes in 2v2. The combo shown here with vengence was built for and has not only won but dominated in its fair share player run FFA events in the recent past.
Infact enuf so to warrant banning of the illusionist from several and a swing in the meta game of the ones it's still legal in. Point here being is that your not having to waste cards slots on tons of critters and spells that arent required need to attack leave yourself open to chump blockers and fog effects.
What Buba didnt tell ya'll is that x3 vengence isnt needed only a way to constantly sac the narcos with one Vengence at the very least.....im sure u guys can figure re-useable ways to sac critters.
However he brings up a great view and point that anyone and everyone at one point and time wanted to make the BEST deck possible they could and viewed that to be the hallowed mark of the first turn kill. Now had you been in the game during the the golden days of channel/fireball you probally more then have that out of your system by now but not all of us have been around as long and just wished to share with some of our not as experianced players one of the two first turn kills possible in the EXT format as of right now.
Lastly as he pointed out the deck has several and obvious weaknesses and is why in a prepared meta the deck isnt so hot and why it's not dominating the PE's and will most likely never do so.
you just keep tryin to dredge out yourself and land those in your gy you sit there for 10 extra minutes tryin to get a good drege without hitting a Gaea's
There is actually another route one can go with this deck. You have cards like Krosan Cloudscraper, Jokulmorder and other big 1X/1X critters and Sutured ghoul along with dragon's breaths and you can smash with a 40something/40something on turn 2 with trample and haste (and flying if you're packing Wonder ;))
Ok, felt a need to respond to what runeliger said about the 'gauntlet version of dredge that most playtest groups are using.' I've played against the best Breakthrough builds online in the 8 man Extended queues, and they are FAR from a consistent turn 2 kill. In fact, in 8 matches I've played vs. Breakthrough dredge via those 8 man tourneys, I have yet to experience this turn 2 kill. I know it is possible, but highly unlikely and very unnecessary when you consider that you can run more land/dredge enabling/dredgers instead of the 1-2 Cepahlid Sages and the 1 Flame-Kin Zealot. Also, if these Breakthrough decks go off so fast, how come they run Ichorid, which is essentially an admission that there will be a turn after the big dredge turn?
Yeah...I should have antic ipated that not many would comment as most MTGO players possess this knowledge, but nonetheless I want to use it as a precursor to my limited analysis of Llorwyn...coming soon.
Good Article but could use some depth and maybe some examples. This is a good article for people that don't draft often but it's common knowledge for the ones that do draft a lot.
MTGO is bugged, try the War Pride / Grave Pact combo. Instead of removing the tokens from the game, it gives them a sacrifice trigger, which sets off Grave Pact (incorrectly)
I made a GW that utilizes Pacifism effects and tappers to allow my army of cats through. Then a Strength in Numbers targeting the original copy allows for it to happen next turn, if there is one. Early regenerators like Mire Boa & Hedge Troll hold of any early rushes while Harmonize get the cards I need.
To be fair, my point was that it is pointless to compare PDC's power level to that of other formats and prepare in that way, since they are fundamentally different formats. The best PDC decks are powerful within the context of PDC-the only context that should matter to said decks.
Let me begin by saiyng I honestly believe you're missing the point. The gauntlet version of dredge most playtest groups are using win game 1 on turn 2 consistently.
The key word there is consistently. That's actually really ridiculous how fast it wins. What you're doing to the deck is basically reverting it back to a slightly upgraded version of Friggoroid. The meta is far faster, and the hate far stronger for you to differentiate from the path.
I recommend you re-examine your deck not from the old aggro-control perspective of friggoroid, and come back at it with the combo perspective, and you'll realize a lot of the "bad" deck choices you see, arethere to facilitate that consistent turn 2 win.
That said, your entire sideboard etc. gets redone as a result.
Great article. I have the same views on how people come into PDC thinking that what they build is good enough, without bothering to ask people or test. People do think that PDC's power level is low thus creating weaker decks in the format.
Hey, thanks for the kind words Necro, Basic, and bubba! One of my friends asked me to build a Classic version of the dredge deck, so that''s what I'm working on right now, as well as the Standard Worlds Qualifier on the 13th.
And for WiseGreen and Anonymous, have you tried Tolarian Winds yet? It really is genuinely faster than Breakthrough, and isn't dependant on you having a Putrid Imp or Careful Study turn 1 to make it worthwhile....the only argument that you can make in favor of Breakthrough is that it it fits better into the 10-16 land versions of the deck, since they often won't have a second land to cast Winds with. The low land count makes it much harder to activate another key card of the deck, the Cephalid Coliseum, and I cant see having less than 18 land to feel like you can reliably activate the Colisuem on turn 2 or 3. Also, I've noticed that Tolarian Winds lets you disguise what you are game 1. As we've established, in order to really make Breakthrough work, there has to be a turn 1 discard outlet. With Tolarian Winds, you can play a Flooded Strand or Polluted Delta, pass the turn with a Winds and a dredger in hand, and your opponent can't tell you apart from a Counterbalance deck, so then maybe they tap out for that Tarmogoyf turn 2 instead of playing a Mogg Fanatic to neautralize your Bridges.
Recap Tolarian Winds- sneaky, only needs dredge cards, quick and efficient
Breakthrough- not very sneaky, needs other discard outlet for turn two effectiveness, can be as fast as tolarian winds at best
As for the 9-land list, it's nice to look at, but have you tried playiing a 9 land deck in a tournament where sideboards are involved? That deck looks like it has lots of bad opening hands, which will lead to lots of mulligans. I tuned this deck specifically to be resilient to the Extended tournament environment, and I think I've done that. Just try my decklist for 50 games versus actual opponents, not goldfishing, and then if you want to come back and rant more, feel free, I'll be here.
The most current version of the deck has +1 Echoing Truth main, + 2 Hurkyl's Recall sideboard, and -1 Deep Analysis main, -1 Echoing Truth sideboard, and -1 Smother sideboard, for anyone interested in running the deck in tournaments. This change really seals up the Affinity matchup after sideboard, giving you access to 4 of the ultimate Affinity hoser. I've also considered making the 1 Deep Analysis left into (gasp) 1 Breakthtrough as a fifth, worse, proxy Tolarian Winds
As Anonymous (lol) said, you really need the Flame-Kin Zealots and Breaktroughs. The deck wants to win on turn 2, 3 at most; if you go off without a Zealot and giving them one turn to find an answer, you're pretty much risking yourself too much. If you're going second, a Mox-enabled Wrath/Damnation is pretty much GG to you. Even if you're going first, you're giving them a chance to topdeck an Echoing Truth, Echoing Decay and Pyroclasm. I know, probably it's not going to happen often, but if you can make it never happen, why not? And Tolarian Winds is slower then Breaktrough, as you're probably playing it with X=0, for one less mana than the Winds. Yes, you'll dump your hand in your grave, but you really only need one land in play to go off, and you don't have to play any more cards from your hand beyond the first dredge enabler. The Cephalid Sages are a failsafe, something to prevent the combo from fizzling when you go off if you don't have enough damage on the pile. It's not essential to the deck, I think, but it adds consistency to it. And if you're playing Sages, you really want to play more Dread Returns, as you're not hardcasting them, but reanimating them instead. And the Ichorids aren't there (only) for the damage, they are an extra outlet for Return/Bridge/Therapy. Last, I'm not sure about it, but you could use less lands; there are Dredge versions running as few as 10 lands - again, as you will often need only one land in play to go off (see the version taht was displayed in TCGPlayer.com a few weeks ago).
I have no doubt underestimated Oblivion Ring but it is still an enchantment and subject to removal. I'm not entirely sold it, although looking through the spoiler again i see there is only 3 enchantment removal spells. Unfortunately for Oblivion Ring one of them is attached to the best mass removal spell in Block, Austere Command. There can be nothing worse then losing an army of Kithkin to the White Command and having your opponent's creature return as well.
I wanted instant speed removal so I added the playsets of Crib Swap and Neck Snap more because they are unrestricted removal then their cost.
If I had 2 or 3 Trio's in my opening hand I would likely mulligan but the four are likely necessary since you want one on the board on Turn 4 if you don't have a Mirror Entity on the board. The Knight of Meadowgrain likely could take up a spot and they were in the very first list but Cenn's Heir took the spot. I wanted to stay true to what the deck would try and accomplish. It wants to attack each and every turn and 2 other Kithkins on board outstrip the Knight in quick order. With this thought it makes me wonder if Dolmen Gate might not find a spot.
Thanks for the feedback, the deck is untested but I will try your suggestions when I begin testing it.
You also want to play Breakthrough with a dredge enabler in your grave. You don't want to hold onto that troll you just dredged back, it's useless with one land in play. You have Putrid Imp as your discard outlet. Ichorid is another great card you took out, why? It comes into play for free by removing a Thug, an Imp, or a Wraith. It sacrifices itself at the EOT and puts a 2/2 zombie into play if BfB is in your grave, 2 zombies if 2 BfB's are in your grave, and so on. You can also sac it to Cabal Therapy to make your opponent discard. Why reanimate the Troll when you can reanimate the Zealot, get a few more tokens, and attack with everything on the same turn? Sorry to rant but, I just looked at your decklists more thoroughly.
i am the one who has won 4 of those PE's with it and originally brought stalking+carion feeder to PRE's the verson looks good but it has too many lands my verson ran 16 lands with no ssg (4x city 4x tarnished 4x gemstone mine 4x tendo) and ran 4x wishes they are insane in this deck . t1 wish into t2 combo happens more than youd think. and you do only need 1x stalking to go off cause if your opp has enough grave hate to take out stalking before you revive it they prob have enough to just take out the narcoes. also you forgot cabal therapy which has been a big part of the ones winning the PRE's. all in all your decklist seems to be build to go t1 but has no staying power vs anything that could stop you. 4x pact has shown up in almost every of the winning versons as they change this. and 1x carion feeder makes the combo completely infinite.
PRE's not PE's
/me sigh. Yanno guys , and espically Josh who figured to "suggest" the sutured/cloudscraper cookie cutter that's been so over played its not funny when frankly only cuts it in 1v1 and sometimes in 2v2. The combo shown here with vengence was built for and has not only won but dominated in its fair share player run FFA events in the recent past.
Infact enuf so to warrant banning of the illusionist from several and a swing in the meta game of the ones it's still legal in. Point here being is that your not having to waste cards slots on tons of critters and spells that arent required need to attack leave yourself open to chump blockers and fog effects.
What Buba didnt tell ya'll is that x3 vengence isnt needed only a way to constantly sac the narcos with one Vengence at the very least.....im sure u guys can figure re-useable ways to sac critters.
However he brings up a great view and point that anyone and everyone at one point and time wanted to make the BEST deck possible they could and viewed that to be the hallowed mark of the first turn kill. Now had you been in the game during the the golden days of channel/fireball you probally more then have that out of your system by now but not all of us have been around as long and just wished to share with some of our not as experianced players one of the two first turn kills possible in the EXT format as of right now.
Lastly as he pointed out the deck has several and obvious weaknesses and is why in a prepared meta the deck isnt so hot and why it's not dominating the PE's and will most likely never do so.
take out the Gaea's Blessing
you just keep tryin to dredge out yourself and land those in your gy you sit there for 10 extra minutes tryin to get a good drege without hitting a Gaea's
As of last week at least Tarmogoyf+Sutured Ghoul does not work online. So second list is kinda moot.
Sorry I cannot defend myself aginst those statments. How true you are.
Doesn't seem like a very casual deck to me. Isn't the point of the casual room to have games that actually last more than 60 seconds?
There is actually another route one can go with this deck. You have cards like Krosan Cloudscraper, Jokulmorder and other big 1X/1X critters and Sutured ghoul along with dragon's breaths and you can smash with a 40something/40something on turn 2 with trample and haste (and flying if you're packing Wonder ;))
Ok, felt a need to respond to what runeliger said about the 'gauntlet version of dredge that most playtest groups are using.' I've played against the best Breakthrough builds online in the 8 man Extended queues, and they are FAR from a consistent turn 2 kill. In fact, in 8 matches I've played vs. Breakthrough dredge via those 8 man tourneys, I have yet to experience this turn 2 kill. I know it is possible, but highly unlikely and very unnecessary when you consider that you can run more land/dredge enabling/dredgers instead of the 1-2 Cepahlid Sages and the 1 Flame-Kin Zealot. Also, if these Breakthrough decks go off so fast, how come they run Ichorid, which is essentially an admission that there will be a turn after the big dredge turn?
Yeah...I should have antic ipated that not many would comment as most MTGO players possess this knowledge, but nonetheless I want to use it as a precursor to my limited analysis of Llorwyn...coming soon.
Good Article but could use some depth and maybe some examples. This is a good article for people that don't draft often but it's common knowledge for the ones that do draft a lot.
MTGO is bugged, try the War Pride / Grave Pact combo. Instead of removing the tokens from the game, it gives them a sacrifice trigger, which sets off Grave Pact (incorrectly)
Sorry, but it seems you dont get the points of current dredge decks.
They are absolutely not focussed in reanimating Golgari Grave-Troll, but instead the Flame Kin Zealo/Zombie run.
Also you dont get the point of Ichori and its synerg. Even so the Streeth Wrait synergy with turn 1 discard.
A more analysis of some cards would have helped.
So for me this the article is just out of time
I made a GW that utilizes Pacifism effects and tappers to allow my army of cats through. Then a Strength in Numbers targeting the original copy allows for it to happen next turn, if there is one. Early regenerators like Mire Boa & Hedge Troll hold of any early rushes while Harmonize get the cards I need.
Hey, thanks. I look forward to hearing how it works out.
To be fair, my point was that it is pointless to compare PDC's power level to that of other formats and prepare in that way, since they are fundamentally different formats. The best PDC decks are powerful within the context of PDC-the only context that should matter to said decks.
-Alex
PDC's power level IS low, compared to non-PDC.
PDC decks will get smashed by competitve non-PDC ones.
Spike's point is that this is irrelevant and looking at it from this angle is not helpful in building good PDC decks.
Also there's a slight typo in the introduction : a "no" missing before Wrath :)
Nice to have you at PureMTGO!
Let me begin by saiyng I honestly believe you're missing the point. The gauntlet version of dredge most playtest groups are using win game 1 on turn 2 consistently.
The key word there is consistently. That's actually really ridiculous how fast it wins. What you're doing to the deck is basically reverting it back to a slightly upgraded version of Friggoroid. The meta is far faster, and the hate far stronger for you to differentiate from the path.
I recommend you re-examine your deck not from the old aggro-control perspective of friggoroid, and come back at it with the combo perspective, and you'll realize a lot of the "bad" deck choices you see, arethere to facilitate that consistent turn 2 win.
That said, your entire sideboard etc. gets redone as a result.
Just saying :P
Some of the current prices are way off...
Force of Will for 1?
New perspective, or old one? not sure lol
Real good read
Great article. I have the same views on how people come into PDC thinking that what they build is good enough, without bothering to ask people or test. People do think that PDC's power level is low thus creating weaker decks in the format.
Hey, thanks for the kind words Necro, Basic, and bubba! One of my friends asked me to build a Classic version of the dredge deck, so that''s what I'm working on right now, as well as the Standard Worlds Qualifier on the 13th.
And for WiseGreen and Anonymous, have you tried Tolarian Winds yet? It really is genuinely faster than Breakthrough, and isn't dependant on you having a Putrid Imp or Careful Study turn 1 to make it worthwhile....the only argument that you can make in favor of Breakthrough is that it it fits better into the 10-16 land versions of the deck, since they often won't have a second land to cast Winds with. The low land count makes it much harder to activate another key card of the deck, the Cephalid Coliseum, and I cant see having less than 18 land to feel like you can reliably activate the Colisuem on turn 2 or 3. Also, I've noticed that Tolarian Winds lets you disguise what you are game 1. As we've established, in order to really make Breakthrough work, there has to be a turn 1 discard outlet. With Tolarian Winds, you can play a Flooded Strand or Polluted Delta, pass the turn with a Winds and a dredger in hand, and your opponent can't tell you apart from a Counterbalance deck, so then maybe they tap out for that Tarmogoyf turn 2 instead of playing a Mogg Fanatic to neautralize your Bridges.
Recap
Tolarian Winds- sneaky, only needs dredge cards, quick and efficient
Breakthrough- not very sneaky, needs other discard outlet for turn two effectiveness, can be as fast as tolarian winds at best
As for the 9-land list, it's nice to look at, but have you tried playiing a 9 land deck in a tournament where sideboards are involved? That deck looks like it has lots of bad opening hands, which will lead to lots of mulligans. I tuned this deck specifically to be resilient to the Extended tournament environment, and I think I've done that. Just try my decklist for 50 games versus actual opponents, not goldfishing, and then if you want to come back and rant more, feel free, I'll be here.
The most current version of the deck has +1 Echoing Truth main, + 2 Hurkyl's Recall sideboard, and -1 Deep Analysis main, -1 Echoing Truth sideboard, and -1 Smother sideboard, for anyone interested in running the deck in tournaments. This change really seals up the Affinity matchup after sideboard, giving you access to 4 of the ultimate Affinity hoser. I've also considered making the 1 Deep Analysis left into (gasp) 1 Breakthtrough as a fifth, worse, proxy Tolarian Winds
Mike
(can't login... =P)
As Anonymous (lol) said, you really need the Flame-Kin Zealots and Breaktroughs. The deck wants to win on turn 2, 3 at most; if you go off without a Zealot and giving them one turn to find an answer, you're pretty much risking yourself too much. If you're going second, a Mox-enabled Wrath/Damnation is pretty much GG to you. Even if you're going first, you're giving them a chance to topdeck an Echoing Truth, Echoing Decay and Pyroclasm. I know, probably it's not going to happen often, but if you can make it never happen, why not? And Tolarian Winds is slower then Breaktrough, as you're probably playing it with X=0, for one less mana than the Winds. Yes, you'll dump your hand in your grave, but you really only need one land in play to go off, and you don't have to play any more cards from your hand beyond the first dredge enabler. The Cephalid Sages are a failsafe, something to prevent the combo from fizzling when you go off if you don't have enough damage on the pile. It's not essential to the deck, I think, but it adds consistency to it. And if you're playing Sages, you really want to play more Dread Returns, as you're not hardcasting them, but reanimating them instead. And the Ichorids aren't there (only) for the damage, they are an extra outlet for Return/Bridge/Therapy. Last, I'm not sure about it, but you could use less lands; there are Dredge versions running as few as 10 lands - again, as you will often need only one land in play to go off (see the version taht was displayed in TCGPlayer.com a few weeks ago).
I have no doubt underestimated Oblivion Ring but it is still an enchantment and subject to removal. I'm not entirely sold it, although looking through the spoiler again i see there is only 3 enchantment removal spells. Unfortunately for Oblivion Ring one of them is attached to the best mass removal spell in Block, Austere Command. There can be nothing worse then losing an army of Kithkin to the White Command and having your opponent's creature return as well.
I wanted instant speed removal so I added the playsets of Crib Swap and Neck Snap more because they are unrestricted removal then their cost.
If I had 2 or 3 Trio's in my opening hand I would likely mulligan but the four are likely necessary since you want one on the board on Turn 4 if you don't have a Mirror Entity on the board. The Knight of Meadowgrain likely could take up a spot and they were in the very first list but Cenn's Heir took the spot. I wanted to stay true to what the deck would try and accomplish. It wants to attack each and every turn and 2 other Kithkins on board outstrip the Knight in quick order. With this thought it makes me wonder if Dolmen Gate might not find a spot.
Thanks for the feedback, the deck is untested but I will try your suggestions when I begin testing it.
You also want to play Breakthrough with a dredge enabler in your grave. You don't want to hold onto that troll you just dredged back, it's useless with one land in play. You have Putrid Imp as your discard outlet. Ichorid is another great card you took out, why? It comes into play for free by removing a Thug, an Imp, or a Wraith. It sacrifices itself at the EOT and puts a 2/2 zombie into play if BfB is in your grave, 2 zombies if 2 BfB's are in your grave, and so on. You can also sac it to Cabal Therapy to make your opponent discard. Why reanimate the Troll when you can reanimate the Zealot, get a few more tokens, and attack with everything on the same turn? Sorry to rant but, I just looked at your decklists more thoroughly.