I mean p9 (not the original borders though) have been down since VMA went of out print (finally) and the speculators dumped their load after realizing they would not be making their money back. That was 4 years ago. There have been peaks and valleys since then but moxen have been extremely affordable since then. I don't think you can look at Vintage for any kind of indicators of financial stability or volatility.
I think the real indicators would be modern cards which while they gain and lose value regularly have never really been cheaper in aggregate (to my memory.) That's a direct effect of the panics and people doomsaying rather than any real sign of the mythical end imho.
Let us not make it worse then it is. Mox Ruby is not traded at a spread of $60. The VMA version is sold at 6.5 and bought at 5.5. The 1E version is sold at 66 and bought at 59. These spreads are not special.
And they are the only "trendsetters" in mtgo, the bots. And they do not meet any hindrance from wotc, even though it is very easy to meet the bot with hindrances.
Bot is third party software, specifically disallowed by user agreement, all games / similar programmes have this in the user agreement.
It is wotc's responsibility to caretake my rights as customer, but they turn the blind eye.
Is it any wonder that we among many other sick things have cheating in mtg both online and in paper ?
Mox Ruby is retailing for $65 but buying for $5 (one bot even offered me only $1 today for Mox Ruby, whereas MTGO Traders at least offered $5). For a $65 card, that speaks volumes.
Forgot to announce: Ashen Rider and Angel of Despair are now restricted to their tribe, in all formats. I was going to do it since a while, and it seemed important to make sure they won't be abused off-tribe in Vintage.
Just one thing I can comment on now. There is competitive and competitive. In one way there are players that are looking let's say for the challenge and want to play some cutthroat games against opponents that are playing well and are trying to win the game (since the money is on the line). I can't really say how much that happens on Arena because I haven't encountered that kind of games there yet while on MODO I can get them anytime. The other things is tournaments. Both platforms will offer competitive events that will seed to PT. Arena might be taking over in the near future for limited and Standard. Still what will be better? It will depend on what you play, they might be more focus on Arena but it won't change anything about the events on MODO.
I won't comment with my thoughts yet about the overall topic, I might write an article later though summing that up. A lot has changed since November last year when the game was first available for some lucky players. I come back to MODO all the time but I can't deny that Arena is finally in the a state that I can accept even though I don't particularly like it.
“I’m also not at all impressed by the flashiness of Arena, but that’s probably just me". Nope.
As for Bo1: the Arena devs have been pushing Bo1 above all else for a while now. Which is strange, because when they first implemented Bo3 during te closed beta, they hailed it as “True Magic finally comes to Arena” (yes, really). There has been a change of heart sometimes between May and August, which has led to Bo3 getting hidden, first by getting buried in a menu then behind the toggle, an attempt to remove Bo3 entirely before going into open beta in August, and now the decision to take out Bo3 from mattering in ranked plays.
This is just weird, and the devs simply won’t communicate why they are taking these steps (see Saffron Olive’s article you link to). It is particularly strange because it takes no additional work from the devs - the mode is already there, including sideboarding - while Bo1, while wildly played, also engenders a lot of defiance from people because of all the reasons you cite plus the mistrust in the starting hand algorithm, an algorithm that has not been detailed because the devs are worried such details would be used to construct decks that take advantage of it. So why no leave it alone so that people who take issues with Bo1 have something else to fall back on?
There must be a reason, but for the life of me, I can’t fathom it.
The changes to the reward structure, at least, are much easier to understand, as long as one does not listen to the official line that these are “for the good of the players”...
I agree wholeheartedly with PCJR, I like MTGO because of the formats it supports, it will linger on for a good while for that reason. But enjoy it whilst it lasts.
The competitive play one, as mentioned, was tricky. Right now, for the average player who wants a challenge, the points go to MTGO. We just don't know enough about how Arena will handle tournaments and events yet.
MTGO doesn't support integration with 3rd party tools to use while playing. I just started using mtgatracker. Its kind of cool to see a list of all the cards still left in my deck in the order of likelihood to draw (for both limited and constructed). And, while drafting, makes it easy to see which of the last few picks I still need for my collection. There are many other features.
MTGO game play is tedious compared to MTGA. Sometimes I want the control, but for the formats offerred, its seldom.
I see transitioning from MTGA to MTGO to be a big change for anyone who's gotten used to Arena's model and style of play. And, since by definition, the most serious of competitive play will be happening on Arena, I think you scored this one (competitive play) wrong.
Arena constantly offers new (sometimes wacky) formats on a weekly basis. MTGO is not nearly as flexible. Sure, it supports all the "supported" paper formats, but little more.
You could mention that MTGO supports real tournaments. There's no such thing as a swiss tournament in MTGA (at this time).
For those who still have MTGO collections, my sympathies. Hopefully there will still be support (and players) to keep MTGO going for a few more years. It was awesome while it lasted.
My primary interest has historically been limited. But now, 90% of my Arena games are constructed. I haven't experienced where Arena falls short for constructed. However, I'm only playing standard. For other formats, Arena fails and isn't afraid of admitting it. But, you can't trust my opinion, the only paper deck I keep around is an old Extended Stasis deck.
Considering their track record you mean? Keep in mind that while they (Wizards) are involved in its development, it is not their product alone. Stainless did a lot of the heavy lifting. I am happy with how Arena is turning out as compared to Duels but it is a very long way from being satisfactory to me as a m:tg client. And I think that's crux of the discussion here. Everyone has their needs/wants and opinions about how those needs/wants are being taken care of. I think if you're primary interest in the game is limited (drafting in particular because sealed does not seem as good because the editor is still clunky) arena is a lot more attractive than if your primary interest is constructed. Nevermind if your forte is an eternal format.
Arena is definitely a closed world, it has completely different goals. Its kind of a relief not to worry about passing a valuable rare in a draft if I already have enough of them. After all, all rares are of equal value.
With regards to goals, they recently announced some new ones (season rewards, Mythic Championship qualification). Personally, I earn gold while tuning some fun decks, and use the gold to draft. Its in Beta still and is barely a year old. I think its really quite amazing that Wizards has produced something like this.
I mean p9 (not the original borders though) have been down since VMA went of out print (finally) and the speculators dumped their load after realizing they would not be making their money back. That was 4 years ago. There have been peaks and valleys since then but moxen have been extremely affordable since then. I don't think you can look at Vintage for any kind of indicators of financial stability or volatility.
I think the real indicators would be modern cards which while they gain and lose value regularly have never really been cheaper in aggregate (to my memory.) That's a direct effect of the panics and people doomsaying rather than any real sign of the mythical end imho.
Pernicious Deed and Vindicate used to cost $100. I dont know why Mox Ruby dropped in price but Vintage has never seen a lot of action online.
Thanks for this podcast.
I am impressed that AJ correctly deduced that the card was Drakestown Forgotten, it was an unusually tough one.
Hearts, the bots are not to blame.
Thanks Cauchy for clarifying, makes sense now.
(On a side note Cauchy, the price for the Vintage Masters version of Mox Ruby used to be $60 and is now $5).
Let us not make it worse then it is. Mox Ruby is not traded at a spread of $60. The VMA version is sold at 6.5 and bought at 5.5. The 1E version is sold at 66 and bought at 59. These spreads are not special.
Meteor Golem worth adding to the list or should we let it be until someone remembers it?
And they are the only "trendsetters" in mtgo, the bots. And they do not meet any hindrance from wotc, even though it is very easy to meet the bot with hindrances.
Bot is third party software, specifically disallowed by user agreement, all games / similar programmes have this in the user agreement.
It is wotc's responsibility to caretake my rights as customer, but they turn the blind eye.
Is it any wonder that we among many other sick things have cheating in mtg both online and in paper ?
Nice article, thank you and happy holidays.
Mox Ruby is retailing for $65 but buying for $5 (one bot even offered me only $1 today for Mox Ruby, whereas MTGO Traders at least offered $5). For a $65 card, that speaks volumes.
Forgot to announce: Ashen Rider and Angel of Despair are now restricted to their tribe, in all formats. I was going to do it since a while, and it seemed important to make sure they won't be abused off-tribe in Vintage.
Yeah am bad at names but I am good at guessing types :p
What a huge episode it was this week, thanks for making it.
The best comment of this week's podcast was Paul's comment "Is it an artificer?" :)
Nice article.
Just one thing I can comment on now. There is competitive and competitive. In one way there are players that are looking let's say for the challenge and want to play some cutthroat games against opponents that are playing well and are trying to win the game (since the money is on the line). I can't really say how much that happens on Arena because I haven't encountered that kind of games there yet while on MODO I can get them anytime. The other things is tournaments. Both platforms will offer competitive events that will seed to PT. Arena might be taking over in the near future for limited and Standard. Still what will be better? It will depend on what you play, they might be more focus on Arena but it won't change anything about the events on MODO.
I won't comment with my thoughts yet about the overall topic, I might write an article later though summing that up. A lot has changed since November last year when the game was first available for some lucky players. I come back to MODO all the time but I can't deny that Arena is finally in the a state that I can accept even though I don't particularly like it.
The writing was on the wall 8 years ago and then again 4 years ago and again 2 years ago. I do not believe the graffiti. Nor the artists that make it.
“I’m also not at all impressed by the flashiness of Arena, but that’s probably just me". Nope.
As for Bo1: the Arena devs have been pushing Bo1 above all else for a while now. Which is strange, because when they first implemented Bo3 during te closed beta, they hailed it as “True Magic finally comes to Arena” (yes, really). There has been a change of heart sometimes between May and August, which has led to Bo3 getting hidden, first by getting buried in a menu then behind the toggle, an attempt to remove Bo3 entirely before going into open beta in August, and now the decision to take out Bo3 from mattering in ranked plays.
This is just weird, and the devs simply won’t communicate why they are taking these steps (see Saffron Olive’s article you link to). It is particularly strange because it takes no additional work from the devs - the mode is already there, including sideboarding - while Bo1, while wildly played, also engenders a lot of defiance from people because of all the reasons you cite plus the mistrust in the starting hand algorithm, an algorithm that has not been detailed because the devs are worried such details would be used to construct decks that take advantage of it. So why no leave it alone so that people who take issues with Bo1 have something else to fall back on?
There must be a reason, but for the life of me, I can’t fathom it.
The changes to the reward structure, at least, are much easier to understand, as long as one does not listen to the official line that these are “for the good of the players”...
while I was working on this, the decklists made sense, but I see something has messed up there.
working on a fix for it now, sorry.
Even if I wanted to play a deck with workshops, I think its better and fair to ban it.
I agree wholeheartedly with PCJR, I like MTGO because of the formats it supports, it will linger on for a good while for that reason. But enjoy it whilst it lasts.
The writing is on the wall.
The competitive play one, as mentioned, was tricky. Right now, for the average player who wants a challenge, the points go to MTGO. We just don't know enough about how Arena will handle tournaments and events yet.
MTGO doesn't support integration with 3rd party tools to use while playing. I just started using mtgatracker. Its kind of cool to see a list of all the cards still left in my deck in the order of likelihood to draw (for both limited and constructed). And, while drafting, makes it easy to see which of the last few picks I still need for my collection. There are many other features.
MTGO game play is tedious compared to MTGA. Sometimes I want the control, but for the formats offerred, its seldom.
I see transitioning from MTGA to MTGO to be a big change for anyone who's gotten used to Arena's model and style of play. And, since by definition, the most serious of competitive play will be happening on Arena, I think you scored this one (competitive play) wrong.
Arena constantly offers new (sometimes wacky) formats on a weekly basis. MTGO is not nearly as flexible. Sure, it supports all the "supported" paper formats, but little more.
You could mention that MTGO supports real tournaments. There's no such thing as a swiss tournament in MTGA (at this time).
For those who still have MTGO collections, my sympathies. Hopefully there will still be support (and players) to keep MTGO going for a few more years. It was awesome while it lasted.
I should note that the picture for smokestack ended up being not at all what I described because it's a different version.
My primary interest has historically been limited. But now, 90% of my Arena games are constructed. I haven't experienced where Arena falls short for constructed. However, I'm only playing standard. For other formats, Arena fails and isn't afraid of admitting it. But, you can't trust my opinion, the only paper deck I keep around is an old Extended Stasis deck.
Best of one (BO1) is also a cool feature.
Considering their track record you mean? Keep in mind that while they (Wizards) are involved in its development, it is not their product alone. Stainless did a lot of the heavy lifting. I am happy with how Arena is turning out as compared to Duels but it is a very long way from being satisfactory to me as a m:tg client. And I think that's crux of the discussion here. Everyone has their needs/wants and opinions about how those needs/wants are being taken care of. I think if you're primary interest in the game is limited (drafting in particular because sealed does not seem as good because the editor is still clunky) arena is a lot more attractive than if your primary interest is constructed. Nevermind if your forte is an eternal format.
It's soon all Pokemon with mtg.
No upkeep, and no using fast effects at start of combat like in that Dublin PT.
PT becomes a flash on an electronic device, no battle of tongue between a Pete Jahn-judge and some Finkel, Justice or Budde.
I don't understand how little people understand about how bad this is for the mtg we knew, its disappearing for good this time.
Hasta la vista.
Arena is definitely a closed world, it has completely different goals. Its kind of a relief not to worry about passing a valuable rare in a draft if I already have enough of them. After all, all rares are of equal value.
With regards to goals, they recently announced some new ones (season rewards, Mythic Championship qualification). Personally, I earn gold while tuning some fun decks, and use the gold to draft. Its in Beta still and is barely a year old. I think its really quite amazing that Wizards has produced something like this.