Thank you both. If C15 really doesn't get an MTGO release, I (and likely many others) will be extremely unhappy.
It was bad enough that Conspiracy wasn't on MTGO, but at least some of those cards got released on MTGO with Vintage Masters. I could vaguely understand why a draft set like that couldn't get a digital release when they can't get the client working normally, much less with weird draft interactions.
What possible reason could they have for keeping C15 from those of us that only play digital? I find it difficult to believe that the unlimited numbers and continued sales of C11,13 and 14 (since all are still in the store) haven't covered the cost of digitizing the product and made a handsome sum on top.
Which is why the price point should be lower. Deciding that all precons must be priced at $20 or higher is just stupid imho. Creativity in this matter would not go unrewarded.
Oh and there was a time when you could buy say Garruk vs Liliana and profit by selling off a few of the chase cards. They have not always been easier to obtain out of the box. In fact some like GvL had cards you could not obtain elsewise.
The big problem with the duel decks is that the price of commons, and cards in general, is so very low that you can generally buy the entire duel deck for much, much less than the MSRP. I remember on duel deck that cost $25, but had cards that totaled far less than $10. Not a very smart buy.
It's always easier to put a duel deck together yourself, instead of buying it.
Yes they stopped doing duel decks a while ago. The numbers were not good from what they said. And this year they aren't giving us the commander decks either since apparently the numbers aren't good for them as well.
Pete, since you keep up with MTGO, any idea what happened to Duel Decks? Is it me, or have none of the DDs since Jace vs Vraska been released on MTGO? Did they discontinue the DD for MTGO?
Excellent article. Hopefully we'll get to see the changes to the format play out on stream (not many dedicated Vintage streamers out there, other than Rich and Andy). Here's to hoping!
One of my edits to the article was apparently not saved, I had added the five missing SB cards from the "Smoking Nova" deck: 3 Grafdigger's cage 2 tormod's crypt.
Sorry, missed the "perfect conditions" line. That's embarrassing. My bad. But in judging ban-worthiness, we shouldn't overly weigh perfect conditions (or else Mana Clash would be banned, winning the game on t.1 with 20 consecutive winning coin flips). So, I think there's still some good substance to my earlier comments.
Don't get me wrong, I haven't advocated for a Cloudpost ban, and have even defended it slightly, mentioning how it is necessary for certain tribes. I've only made comments to help frame the ban argument correctly, should it go one way or the other. It is pretty broken, and far better than Tron on average, but that's not the end of the analysis. My last ban advocacy was for All Is Dust in Pure and to some extent in Underdog, and I'm even on the record for having retracted my request. I also said Emrakul was fair in the only deck I analyzed having it.
We should be having a ban/purification discussion on these cards. The discussion is healthy to have even if we don't take action, and I'm sorry you think it wastes your time.
I'm not a huge fan of your statistical analysis argument for deckbuilding sake, but I appreciate it has some merit in a casual format where people want to do non-broken things with broken cards. I just don't like deckbuilding around a broken card if unnecessary, just because it hasn't been exploited enough. Oh well, I can live (obviously).
I appreciate your stance in keeping Tribal interesting, you know full well my perspective on the issue and you have my total support.
Whilst two of the Scarecrow decks ran painter stone, the third was one of mine, which used the obscure gem Spreading Plague to dominate games instead. I've been musing dusting it off some time soon for a rejig. :)
WTF?! You took my analysis of the FIRST THREE TURNS as if it was meant to represent a comparison of the power level OVERALL? Like I'm dense or something?
I wrote and I quote, adding emphasis: "compare Tron and Cloudpost's mana ramping in early turns under perfect conditions". So Post is worse than Tron in early turns under perfect conditions for what concerns mana ramping up until that point (not lifegaining, not chances of winning a match-up against whatever other archetype). Because it is. You don't need any degree in statistics to know that. To achieve what the Post wants to achieve by turn 3, you can't break an Expedition Map, and you have to drop the lands in that precise order, reducing the chances of doing so consistently. It might not mean much if you're playing vs. a midrange deck, but it's the reason why Post has a hard time vs. the fast aggro tribes that are the vast majority of the meta. You skip a beat, they don't forgive you, and there's just so many Glimmerpost you can drop in the meantime.
I wasn't bitter at all, I was trying to reframe the whole thing in a tongue-in-cheek manner. But I'm bitter NOW. Because I'm wasting even more time discussing an archetype that, while being played very frequently, won maybe 10 events (I'm even generous here, since there's 2 Constructs, 2 Golems, 3 Scarecrows that, if you want to be honest, won because of Painter/Grindstone more than they did because of Post, plus some Gargoyle and other minor tribes). 10 events out of 248. Want to run the statistics for that? It's absurd, and unhealthy, to start a ban war based on such figures. It doesn't help the tournament, it doesn't help the players, it doesn't help me.
I'll tell you this: as long as I'll be the host here, Tribal Apocalypse won't turn into the Human/Elf/Goblin Show. It's this close to be just that (again: statistically). I won't allow it to slide into that direction even further.
Thanks for your words and for being passionate enough to devote your own time to second-guessing me. I just wish you'd do in a direction that's actually helping. Me and the event.
Yeah, I should have put 2 mana there, and "dropping but not breaking Expedition Map" as an action. Still the result untapping by turn 3 would be the same. Tron gets to All Is Dust faster than Post. The reason nobody (except a few occasions) ever play Tron is because with Post you get the free lifegaining and the chance to do more explosive things later, if you manage to survive.
Your deck names aren't compatible with this site's policies, Scion. :)
For what it's worth, I did a Gatherling check on the Scarecrow decks (search for Scarecrone) and can confirm that all three winning decks ran the Cloudpost engine.
I am the author/script writer and founder of Face Value Comics. We scored the copyright on the world's first featured comic book hero with autism. Being autistic myself, I wrote a prominent hero who has clinical autistic traits (and diagnosis). I was a successful therapist for years, and wove into our comics the concept of facial feature recognition frozen on the static page, as a concept carry-over from my doctoral research. Add some family-friendly code of conduct, some aliens and steampunk robots, typical anxiety, fears, and (self) doubts, and that's our series...so far.
Yes, it might well be said that I'm bluster without sweetness sometimes. My apologies. The amount of work it takes for Kuma to run the event, break it down statistically, and write it up, week in, week out for several years is incredible. I ran a chess event locally every week and submitted it for rating to the national federation for about three years. But this is far more work and the decisions far more second-guessable. So, loud and proud - THANK YOU KUMA! May my disagreements in some areas never conflate with utter awe at your overall body of work here.
I think the reason why Cloudpost engine is so strong is not just because it produces so much mana, but because it gains you life while doing so, essentially giving you free turns against fast decks. Gaining 3 life from Glimmerpost/Vesuvas (but it will be much more on average) means at least 1 turn lost for an aggro deck, or discard of a 1 burn spell (both huge deals). And latter when you reach enough mana, you can start tutoring for glimmerposts with Expedition Map. Stabilizing is much easier with Cloudpost engine that with Tron engine, and that is something that needs to be considered when evaluating power level. Both Cloudpost and Tron engine are great versus slower decks without counterspells, because they will essentially start casting ridiculous stuff, but Cloudpost is also great versus fast decks. Now that additional life-gaining lands have been printed (the one that gains you 2 life, and the one that gains you 1 life for each colorless creatures), Cloudpost deck have such a redundancy of lifegaining that it feels impossible attacking them down to zero, before they stabilize.
Don't confuse this as me starting a war against Cloudpost or being combatant etc., I think it's completely legitimate decision not to ban it (if I were a host, I am not sure what I would do*), I am just trying to illustrate why I think the engine is very powerful.
*When you are a player it is much easier to suggest stuff etc. because you can simply express your personal opinions without feeling such weight of responsibility, but when you are a host any decision or non-decision is much tougher, at least that was my experience when I was hosting.
"But [Cloudpost/Glimmerpost/Vesuva combo]'s actually worse than Tron..." Wow, I can't believe you would try to sell that. Which is banned in Modern and Pauper? That alone should be very suggestive to you. Two Post lands in your starting hand plus first draw are probably better than two Tron lands upwards of 95% of the time, especially considering 3rd land expectancies vs. mana potential. Four Post-lands are probably better than four Tron lands at a similar clip, especially considering the incidental lifegain. Exactly three lands still has to favor Cloudpost, though the percentage is closer. I've played against Tron in Modern a decent amount and while that third land is the full tron about half the time from my experience with Map (but not always turn 3), half the time it isn't. Even when it is, Cloudpost has several three-post hands that can meet or exceed it at the same clip, certainly after an untap, and certainly if, like the Tron example we allowed for one search. Cloudpost's sub-optimal three-post land draws are far superior to Tron's sub-optimal three-land draws. Tron is way easier to disrupt with a single Wasteland, especially in Tribal, where you can't fit as many land search spells. Vesuva also has extraneous uses which should not be entirely discounted (e.g., I've often copied enemy Cloudposts when I lacked mine, or an opponent's colored mana when I played a sub-color but hadn't drawn any yet.) Perhaps someone with a degree in statistics could spell out the probabilities more explicitly for us.
The correct ban decision regarding Cloudpost may easily be to do nothing, but suggesting that the two are equal in strength strikes me as deceptive or naïve.
"Yes, all that ramp and mass destruction didn't guarantee a placement. It beat Berserker, though." Instead of mocking the use of 12-post, try to appreciate the fact that he would have won far less with overcosted Horses had he not run them. Instead of gloating on the win over Berserker (as if Tron should beat burn decks as a matter of course), please recognize that those Berserkers had 12 4-drops, slowing it well into midrange.
I'm sad to say that you sound bitter this week, Kuma. You talk about us being complaining and up in arms and ban-happy. I don't think anyone's "starting a war," as you put it. Everyone wants what's best for the format, and knocking down the spell level to assist the creatures should not be overly shocking or unwelcome. I think most people here are happy to agree with you to leave it alone for now on a quasi-watchlist status. Raising concerns and suggesting fixes is hardly bad.
May I ask you which comics do you write for? Or if you don't want to be too overt about your identity, at least in which country and/or for which publisher?
Today is my birthday. Thank you for your welcoming of me, my ideas, and my questions. While I have plans this weekend (i.e: family visiting for birthday), I should be on pace to participate next week. I also have designs on a fun Spooky tribal deck.
On a positive note, I had a great phonecall with our comics publisher. I'll now have more help, with dedicated editors and new, additional artists. This should free me to starting writing about my MTGO experiences. You've all been so supportive of me, and others who visit this page, and this makes a great gift to this old guy! Unlocking an Achievement before I've even dueled in Tribal Wars online gives me the push to play and grow in fun and strategic ways.
Thanks, folks. I don't have a lot of friends in real life. Coming here to read and/or write helps me feel part of something bigger. Sure, I've got a lot of attention for the comics I write, but there is something to be said about a certain level of anonymity and being liked for something not quite so academic or therapeutic. Sometimes, just being "me" is what all of us need, and you've shown a welcoming forum to make this happen.
Thank you both. If C15 really doesn't get an MTGO release, I (and likely many others) will be extremely unhappy.
It was bad enough that Conspiracy wasn't on MTGO, but at least some of those cards got released on MTGO with Vintage Masters. I could vaguely understand why a draft set like that couldn't get a digital release when they can't get the client working normally, much less with weird draft interactions.
What possible reason could they have for keeping C15 from those of us that only play digital? I find it difficult to believe that the unlimited numbers and continued sales of C11,13 and 14 (since all are still in the store) haven't covered the cost of digitizing the product and made a handsome sum on top.
Which is why the price point should be lower. Deciding that all precons must be priced at $20 or higher is just stupid imho. Creativity in this matter would not go unrewarded.
Oh and there was a time when you could buy say Garruk vs Liliana and profit by selling off a few of the chase cards. They have not always been easier to obtain out of the box. In fact some like GvL had cards you could not obtain elsewise.
The big problem with the duel decks is that the price of commons, and cards in general, is so very low that you can generally buy the entire duel deck for much, much less than the MSRP. I remember on duel deck that cost $25, but had cards that totaled far less than $10. Not a very smart buy.
It's always easier to put a duel deck together yourself, instead of buying it.
Yes they stopped doing duel decks a while ago. The numbers were not good from what they said. And this year they aren't giving us the commander decks either since apparently the numbers aren't good for them as well.
As always, great info.
Pete, since you keep up with MTGO, any idea what happened to Duel Decks? Is it me, or have none of the DDs since Jace vs Vraska been released on MTGO? Did they discontinue the DD for MTGO?
Excellent article. Hopefully we'll get to see the changes to the format play out on stream (not many dedicated Vintage streamers out there, other than Rich and Andy). Here's to hoping!
One of my edits to the article was apparently not saved, I had added the five missing SB cards from the "Smoking Nova" deck: 3 Grafdigger's cage 2 tormod's crypt.
Sorry, missed the "perfect conditions" line. That's embarrassing. My bad. But in judging ban-worthiness, we shouldn't overly weigh perfect conditions (or else Mana Clash would be banned, winning the game on t.1 with 20 consecutive winning coin flips). So, I think there's still some good substance to my earlier comments.
Don't get me wrong, I haven't advocated for a Cloudpost ban, and have even defended it slightly, mentioning how it is necessary for certain tribes. I've only made comments to help frame the ban argument correctly, should it go one way or the other. It is pretty broken, and far better than Tron on average, but that's not the end of the analysis. My last ban advocacy was for All Is Dust in Pure and to some extent in Underdog, and I'm even on the record for having retracted my request. I also said Emrakul was fair in the only deck I analyzed having it.
We should be having a ban/purification discussion on these cards. The discussion is healthy to have even if we don't take action, and I'm sorry you think it wastes your time.
I'm not a huge fan of your statistical analysis argument for deckbuilding sake, but I appreciate it has some merit in a casual format where people want to do non-broken things with broken cards. I just don't like deckbuilding around a broken card if unnecessary, just because it hasn't been exploited enough. Oh well, I can live (obviously).
I appreciate your stance in keeping Tribal interesting, you know full well my perspective on the issue and you have my total support.
Whilst two of the Scarecrow decks ran painter stone, the third was one of mine, which used the obscure gem Spreading Plague to dominate games instead. I've been musing dusting it off some time soon for a rejig. :)
WTF?! You took my analysis of the FIRST THREE TURNS as if it was meant to represent a comparison of the power level OVERALL? Like I'm dense or something?
I wrote and I quote, adding emphasis: "compare Tron and Cloudpost's mana ramping in early turns under perfect conditions". So Post is worse than Tron in early turns under perfect conditions for what concerns mana ramping up until that point (not lifegaining, not chances of winning a match-up against whatever other archetype). Because it is. You don't need any degree in statistics to know that. To achieve what the Post wants to achieve by turn 3, you can't break an Expedition Map, and you have to drop the lands in that precise order, reducing the chances of doing so consistently. It might not mean much if you're playing vs. a midrange deck, but it's the reason why Post has a hard time vs. the fast aggro tribes that are the vast majority of the meta. You skip a beat, they don't forgive you, and there's just so many Glimmerpost you can drop in the meantime.
I wasn't bitter at all, I was trying to reframe the whole thing in a tongue-in-cheek manner. But I'm bitter NOW. Because I'm wasting even more time discussing an archetype that, while being played very frequently, won maybe 10 events (I'm even generous here, since there's 2 Constructs, 2 Golems, 3 Scarecrows that, if you want to be honest, won because of Painter/Grindstone more than they did because of Post, plus some Gargoyle and other minor tribes). 10 events out of 248. Want to run the statistics for that? It's absurd, and unhealthy, to start a ban war based on such figures. It doesn't help the tournament, it doesn't help the players, it doesn't help me.
I'll tell you this: as long as I'll be the host here, Tribal Apocalypse won't turn into the Human/Elf/Goblin Show. It's this close to be just that (again: statistically). I won't allow it to slide into that direction even further.
Thanks for your words and for being passionate enough to devote your own time to second-guessing me. I just wish you'd do in a direction that's actually helping. Me and the event.
Yeah, I should have put 2 mana there, and "dropping but not breaking Expedition Map" as an action. Still the result untapping by turn 3 would be the same. Tron gets to All Is Dust faster than Post. The reason nobody (except a few occasions) ever play Tron is because with Post you get the free lifegaining and the chance to do more explosive things later, if you manage to survive.
Your deck names aren't compatible with this site's policies, Scion. :)
I can't see why no one else entered for this. Seems like a fruit ripe for the pickin'.
Paul wins
Yaaaayyyyy
OK find me online you already have my sn
For what it's worth, I did a Gatherling check on the Scarecrow decks (search for Scarecrone) and can confirm that all three winning decks ran the Cloudpost engine.
For some reason you're always getting deck names wrong.
According to your above scenario, the post player would have two colorless mana on turn two.
Thanks, Kumagoro42!
I am the author/script writer and founder of Face Value Comics. We scored the copyright on the world's first featured comic book hero with autism. Being autistic myself, I wrote a prominent hero who has clinical autistic traits (and diagnosis). I was a successful therapist for years, and wove into our comics the concept of facial feature recognition frozen on the static page, as a concept carry-over from my doctoral research. Add some family-friendly code of conduct, some aliens and steampunk robots, typical anxiety, fears, and (self) doubts, and that's our series...so far.
Here's a link to our interview with the NBC Nightly News last fall:
http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/making-a-difference/comic-book-stars-worl...
We stay active on FaceBook, too: http://facebook.com/FaceValueComics
Thanks for the birthday wishes, man! :)
Yes, it might well be said that I'm bluster without sweetness sometimes. My apologies. The amount of work it takes for Kuma to run the event, break it down statistically, and write it up, week in, week out for several years is incredible. I ran a chess event locally every week and submitted it for rating to the national federation for about three years. But this is far more work and the decisions far more second-guessable. So, loud and proud - THANK YOU KUMA! May my disagreements in some areas never conflate with utter awe at your overall body of work here.
I think the reason why Cloudpost engine is so strong is not just because it produces so much mana, but because it gains you life while doing so, essentially giving you free turns against fast decks. Gaining 3 life from Glimmerpost/Vesuvas (but it will be much more on average) means at least 1 turn lost for an aggro deck, or discard of a 1 burn spell (both huge deals). And latter when you reach enough mana, you can start tutoring for glimmerposts with Expedition Map. Stabilizing is much easier with Cloudpost engine that with Tron engine, and that is something that needs to be considered when evaluating power level. Both Cloudpost and Tron engine are great versus slower decks without counterspells, because they will essentially start casting ridiculous stuff, but Cloudpost is also great versus fast decks. Now that additional life-gaining lands have been printed (the one that gains you 2 life, and the one that gains you 1 life for each colorless creatures), Cloudpost deck have such a redundancy of lifegaining that it feels impossible attacking them down to zero, before they stabilize.
Don't confuse this as me starting a war against Cloudpost or being combatant etc., I think it's completely legitimate decision not to ban it (if I were a host, I am not sure what I would do*), I am just trying to illustrate why I think the engine is very powerful.
*When you are a player it is much easier to suggest stuff etc. because you can simply express your personal opinions without feeling such weight of responsibility, but when you are a host any decision or non-decision is much tougher, at least that was my experience when I was hosting.
"But [Cloudpost/Glimmerpost/Vesuva combo]'s actually worse than Tron..." Wow, I can't believe you would try to sell that. Which is banned in Modern and Pauper? That alone should be very suggestive to you. Two Post lands in your starting hand plus first draw are probably better than two Tron lands upwards of 95% of the time, especially considering 3rd land expectancies vs. mana potential. Four Post-lands are probably better than four Tron lands at a similar clip, especially considering the incidental lifegain. Exactly three lands still has to favor Cloudpost, though the percentage is closer. I've played against Tron in Modern a decent amount and while that third land is the full tron about half the time from my experience with Map (but not always turn 3), half the time it isn't. Even when it is, Cloudpost has several three-post hands that can meet or exceed it at the same clip, certainly after an untap, and certainly if, like the Tron example we allowed for one search. Cloudpost's sub-optimal three-post land draws are far superior to Tron's sub-optimal three-land draws. Tron is way easier to disrupt with a single Wasteland, especially in Tribal, where you can't fit as many land search spells. Vesuva also has extraneous uses which should not be entirely discounted (e.g., I've often copied enemy Cloudposts when I lacked mine, or an opponent's colored mana when I played a sub-color but hadn't drawn any yet.) Perhaps someone with a degree in statistics could spell out the probabilities more explicitly for us.
The correct ban decision regarding Cloudpost may easily be to do nothing, but suggesting that the two are equal in strength strikes me as deceptive or naïve.
"Yes, all that ramp and mass destruction didn't guarantee a placement. It beat Berserker, though." Instead of mocking the use of 12-post, try to appreciate the fact that he would have won far less with overcosted Horses had he not run them. Instead of gloating on the win over Berserker (as if Tron should beat burn decks as a matter of course), please recognize that those Berserkers had 12 4-drops, slowing it well into midrange.
I'm sad to say that you sound bitter this week, Kuma. You talk about us being complaining and up in arms and ban-happy. I don't think anyone's "starting a war," as you put it. Everyone wants what's best for the format, and knocking down the spell level to assist the creatures should not be overly shocking or unwelcome. I think most people here are happy to agree with you to leave it alone for now on a quasi-watchlist status. Raising concerns and suggesting fixes is hardly bad.
Happy birthday!
May I ask you which comics do you write for? Or if you don't want to be too overt about your identity, at least in which country and/or for which publisher?
Today is my birthday. Thank you for your welcoming of me, my ideas, and my questions. While I have plans this weekend (i.e: family visiting for birthday), I should be on pace to participate next week. I also have designs on a fun Spooky tribal deck.
On a positive note, I had a great phonecall with our comics publisher. I'll now have more help, with dedicated editors and new, additional artists. This should free me to starting writing about my MTGO experiences. You've all been so supportive of me, and others who visit this page, and this makes a great gift to this old guy! Unlocking an Achievement before I've even dueled in Tribal Wars online gives me the push to play and grow in fun and strategic ways.
Thanks, folks. I don't have a lot of friends in real life. Coming here to read and/or write helps me feel part of something bigger. Sure, I've got a lot of attention for the comics I write, but there is something to be said about a certain level of anonymity and being liked for something not quite so academic or therapeutic. Sometimes, just being "me" is what all of us need, and you've shown a welcoming forum to make this happen.
Added as new #55, "The Awakening".
Now you have to actually come play, ComixWriter!
True. That could be fun.
I didn't want to just repeat my Sorrow's Path deck from last year though http://puremtgo.com/articles/fun-land
http://outofthebrokensky.com/mtgo/deckdisplay-zombiesbloodmarch.html My Entry.