I saw an Isochron Scepter imprinted with Lightning Helix today. I forget what tribe was being played, just noting the artifact in play. As time worn down the defenses, it was the artifact - not creatures - that helped save the player (who lost, eventually, iirc).
Oddly, you just strengthened my point. Now we know that at least TWO spiffy swords helped whatever tribe win their match. Siege Rhino comes in at under two bucks per copy. Pretty much, they claims of building a competitive deck for under 10 tickets has a harder time to justify that position when a playset (less, actually) of just two cards already eats up that price tag. Yup- two cards win. Another Sword won another match. What tribe was it? Does it matter?
Let's assume that JMS' advice was headed, and that none of the top qualifying decks sleeved-up copies of Scepters or Charbelchers (but I already know this to be untrue; humor me) or their ilk.
Let's say I wanted to try Soldiers as a tribe. Soldiers are an ALPHA tribe, meaning they have quality cards to support them. Let's try the Vanilla achievement, trying to field a tribe without any additional qualities beyond power/toughness. Maybe CMC could be an advantage in some way. Some easy grabs may include Valiant Guard and Elite Vanguard.
Tell me an Alpha-worthy tribe, such as vanilla soldiers, would be competitive without Wrath of God, Wastelands, Swords, Scepters, etc. In no way would the soldiers' other spells be enough to compensate. Tell me that my non-tribal cards - cards that have absolutely zero affiliation with my tribe - won't cost more than my entire tribe. Tell me that Legacy Tribal Wars has headed JMS's suggestions about his observations of the format that artificially restrict entry by new players. Tell me that the playing field is balanced in favor of tribes, not bomb rare non-tribal cards who whore themselves to the weakest tribe at a pretty penny cost.
If the point of Tribal Wars is to use the best non-tribal cards by whatever tribe I can afford, I think to focus of "tribal" wars seems misleading. When suggestions about a deck improvements offer more non-tribal support than in-tribe support, either the tribe is less playable than anticipated, or the format bows to a select few special universal cards that are not only cost-prohibitive to new players, but dilutes the spirit of tribes in the 1st place.
Have things changed in 9 years since this was written by Jay Moldenhauer-Salazar?
"Suddenly, Spikes and prize-sharks swooped onto the Tribal scene. You know what they realized besides the fact that [edit: certain block sets' tribes, like Onslaught] were the most competitive?
They realized that you could actually use twenty creatures as a necessary evil to win in non-creature ways.
Tooth and Nail became a Tribal staple as did Goblin Charbelcher, Isochron Scepter and Lion’s Eye Diamond’s ability to feed Auriok Salvagers.
Tribal decks seemed to be winning tournaments without any real focus on creature combat or creature-type themes. To me this simply wasn’t the point of Tribal Wars."
TBH, I think your perspective on Tribal is quite inaccurate. I would advise you to play in some events to get a better feel for what gets played, what is overpowered etc. Today I played against a Sword, but before that I don't remember when was the last time I did. It is banned in most of events anyway (and in my opinion it is not a particularly problematic card anyway - it costs you 5 mana before it *potentially* does something)
My comment about price also stands for regular and pure. Actually, I think if anything underdog is a format that comparatively requires higher investment to get higher winning percentage, because non-tribal cards are more important in a format with weaker creatures.
Yes, some of the inexpensive decks can win. These happen during Underdog events, most often.
I'm specifically targeting the Regular and Pure events, for cost evaluation. What were the costs of today's winning decks? How many of them sport expensive dual lands? How expensive was their NON-tribal cards? I think it's odd that I can't play Knights as effectively because their leader was purified, but how many winning decks have Loci in play? How many non-tribal cards cost close or above 10 tickets? Is it tribal, or a bunch a tribal creatures that abuse dual lands, artifacts, or other expensive cards?
When soldiers swing with a neat sword,
...and merfolk swing with that same neat sword,
...and zombies attack with that same sword,
...and spirits hack with that same sword,
...while their controller drops Wasteland -
let's stop pretending this is about tribes: it's more about who can equip said sword first for what-was-my-tribe-again? Can "Wastelanders" or "Swordsmen" be new tribes, because that's what I've been seeing. Again, this is just my casual observations. I'm not asking for the format to change; it's my choice to join or not, and again, everyone has been pretty cool with my ramblings and respect. My comments are just my observations about the cost of the format, and an indictment that tribal wars in regular or pure events is less about a tribe, and more about how a few select, repeated, and relatively expensive cards rule the format, with like-colored creatures asked to perfect the use of said select power cards.
Would anyone be willing to post a competitive vanilla deck that would have hung with today's matches? How about a 1CMC deck to play against today's challengers? Face it- they wouldn't stand a chance. When this happens, for me at least, this game becomes about getting super-expensive cards, but tribes are an afterthought.
Seriously, though, what cards constitute a shell? If I sport a white deck without a Swords to Plowshares, or a non-Lightning Bolt red deck, do I have a prayer? Given all of the non-basic lands, be sure to add a playset of Wastelands, too, since they're what all the cool kids use.
We talk about the impact of All is Dust, and here it is again. We question the use of Cloudposts, yet here they are again. When a card is a staple in the format, but isn't part of thee format theme, it seems like an odd inclusion. Sure, Cloudposts are "only" a nickel at MTGOTraders.com, but those of you familiar with Standard Pauper will remember that Delver of Secrets was either the deck you played or the deck to whom you lost. I'd hate to think of Tribal Wars as a shell game of certain core cards flung at an opponent's head, while some critters of inconsequential value also run around on the board just to use those certain specific cards.
Yes, I can spend less than 2 tickets to sport a competitive deck. Yes, a simple Naturalize - a common and inexpensive card - could easily destroy a Sword, for example. There's always an answer to any given card. Without sideboards, player's would have to pack hate for a very select choice of common targets, thus thinning their tribe. In contrast, the Sword player needs only to worry about their swords being equipped, thus gaining card advantage and using the sword to handle whatever else their opponent's play.
ComixWriter, in Tribal you can make a competitive deck with less than 10 tickets. You can't make every possible deck that you want, but you can make lots of different aggro, midrange and control decks for not a lot of money that will have a solid chance at winning.
And as far as the playing field not being even - that's much more a function of different player types and deckbuilding styles (it's a very diverse crowd), and not so much of them not being financially able to make decks that have good winning percentage.
If tribes are the most important part of playing Tribal Legacy events like this, perhaps restrict the MTGO financial cost of non-tribal cards.
Tribal= 20+ tribal creature cards* which means that at least 40 other cards likely compose the deck. Subtracting costs on non-basic lands, the cost of the remaining cards in that deck cannot trump the tribal costs.
For example, a deck sporting a bunch of inexpensive soldiers may find themselves with only about $2.00 to build the rest of its deck. A deck with a lot of Legends might be costly, but also drops those expensive non-tribal cards, too.
*- Out of curiosity, if tribes matter, why can't non-creature spells that create a tribal member be counted as part of the tribe shell? In a way, a deck that used copies of "Raise the Alarm," "Even the Odds," etc. but didn't have at least 20 type:Creature (soldier) wouldn't count? Wouldn't wizards use spells in unique ways to build their army in unconventional ways, like using sorceries, instants, or enchantments?
Finally, while I like the restrictions imposed on winning decks, I think a firmer opportunity may open the playing field. What if all weekly winners must aim for an unlocked achievement? Let's face it- it's not that one really cool rare card that helped someone win- it was their access to it and other potential powerful cards. If you faced a millionaire each week, would it matter if they were locked out of a handful of bomb-rares or insanely powered cards? I submit that winners need more than money to build a deck; make winners prove their durability beyond their account balance by forcing more diversity, more creativity, and more balance. How many decks made for today's event qualify for an achievement unlock? Did anyone even TRY to unlock an accomplishment in a Regular or Pure event?
Here's a tongue-in-cheek new achievement for your consideration:
"Daddy Warbucks" - register a deck with the highest financial cost. This can be unlocked multiple times by multiple people. Just keep a rolling total of the current cost as the most expensive deck list that season.
ComixWriter: you should read the High Price of Winning for past weeks. This week, as said in the article, has been peculiar, at least for what the trend has been in recent times. From the cheapest winner list you can see how you can win an event with as low as a $2 deck. In fact, all the most powerful tribes come in mono-colored, cheap builds.
After reading "The High Price of Winning," and watching some Regular matches today, I am glad I had some difficulties that prevented me from attending. It'd have been a slaughter.
With Swords of X and Y flying around, cast by multiple dual lands and wielded by Legendary creatures, I don't think I can financially compete with the current builds. Sure, any given deck on any given day COULD win. Things like mana problems or poor execution of triggers on the stack could work to my favor. Does anyone really think a new player is going to be more adept on navigating success with either of those issues than the current regular winners?
For me, I guess it comes down to a "Have" vs "Have Not" mentality. In no real world would multiple achievements be unlocked in events like today: No vanilla deck has hope, and few 1cmc decks would stand a chance. I had difficulties with adding new cards from BFZ, but there's probably a work around that I don't know.
Maybe if there were ever a pauper tribal event, MAYBE this could level the playing field. In a way, the glamour of tribal washes from my eyes. It's more about which particular tribe can equip a cool sword that, really, has absolutely zero to do with the core tribe. It's more about dropping a spiffy ramp land that does more tricks than a lot of common or uncommon creatures. Let's stop pretending that tribes matter for Regular or Pure events- its about how the most powerful cards can fit into any given tribe. Maybe a core shell of Wastelands, Lightning Bolts, Swords to Plowshares, and Swords of X and Y should be defaults for everyone; just build a deck that takes advantage of those core shell cards, be they weenie soldiers of a league of mythic rare Avatars.
I congratulate those who played- you are far braver, far richer, and far more skilled than I am. At this point, I don't think I will be participating in future events. I just don't see a level playing field at this time. Thanks, everyone, for being quite welcoming, though.
It works out to about the same thing with the difference being the two permanents are exiled and not placed in the graveyard. The defending player chooses which two permanents are exiled. Thus, in effect, it is sacrificing.
Thanks for the compliments, guys. And to romellos and the previous interviewee MisterMojoRising for being so available despite the busy times in real life.
And since I ultimately forgot to include it in the article, here's a couple views of Sultanahmet, romellos's favorite district in Istanbul (which is fitting as it takes its name from an Ottoman Sultan bearing his same real name, Ahmet).
The player whom current and former champions alike laud as the toughest to play against. An excellent interview for a player whom, despite missing half a year this season, still has over a hundred points on the board.
Yea it is super sad to give up Modern online for a bit. I will be working on getting back into on some level or another. I appreciate your offer. This site has been a huge blessing with the great support and players located throughout.
Dave,
Thanks for the kind words. As for a white weenie deck the biggest think it would be lacking is an efficient anthem effect. Gideon works but costing 4 is usually not good enough due to Languish and Radiant Flames. Consul's Lieutenant could be good enough but I am just not sure. But rest assured that I am working on it :)
Very glad that everybody is safe and that you had the means of repairing the car. Sad that it means we can't test Modern against each other for a while.
Like before, if you are feeling an itch for Modern and it's not stuff I'm actively using, let me know and you can borrow a deck.
The new cards made for C15 will be distributed as part of the prize packs for the Legendary Cube draft, so they'll still be available online. They will not, however, just be selling the entire C15 decks in the store as they have previously. Why are they doing it this way? Your guess is as good as mine.
I saw an Isochron Scepter imprinted with Lightning Helix today. I forget what tribe was being played, just noting the artifact in play. As time worn down the defenses, it was the artifact - not creatures - that helped save the player (who lost, eventually, iirc).
Oddly, you just strengthened my point. Now we know that at least TWO spiffy swords helped whatever tribe win their match. Siege Rhino comes in at under two bucks per copy. Pretty much, they claims of building a competitive deck for under 10 tickets has a harder time to justify that position when a playset (less, actually) of just two cards already eats up that price tag. Yup- two cards win. Another Sword won another match. What tribe was it? Does it matter?
Let's assume that JMS' advice was headed, and that none of the top qualifying decks sleeved-up copies of Scepters or Charbelchers (but I already know this to be untrue; humor me) or their ilk.
Let's say I wanted to try Soldiers as a tribe. Soldiers are an ALPHA tribe, meaning they have quality cards to support them. Let's try the Vanilla achievement, trying to field a tribe without any additional qualities beyond power/toughness. Maybe CMC could be an advantage in some way. Some easy grabs may include Valiant Guard and Elite Vanguard.
Tell me an Alpha-worthy tribe, such as vanilla soldiers, would be competitive without Wrath of God, Wastelands, Swords, Scepters, etc. In no way would the soldiers' other spells be enough to compensate. Tell me that my non-tribal cards - cards that have absolutely zero affiliation with my tribe - won't cost more than my entire tribe. Tell me that Legacy Tribal Wars has headed JMS's suggestions about his observations of the format that artificially restrict entry by new players. Tell me that the playing field is balanced in favor of tribes, not bomb rare non-tribal cards who whore themselves to the weakest tribe at a pretty penny cost.
If the point of Tribal Wars is to use the best non-tribal cards by whatever tribe I can afford, I think to focus of "tribal" wars seems misleading. When suggestions about a deck improvements offer more non-tribal support than in-tribe support, either the tribe is less playable than anticipated, or the format bows to a select few special universal cards that are not only cost-prohibitive to new players, but dilutes the spirit of tribes in the 1st place.
Nope, in my game, sword-wielding Siege Rhino swinged for final damage :)
Was this the same game in which I also watched a sword-wielding germ swing for final damage in Round 3+ today?
Have things changed in 9 years since this was written by Jay Moldenhauer-Salazar?
"Suddenly, Spikes and prize-sharks swooped onto the Tribal scene. You know what they realized besides the fact that [edit: certain block sets' tribes, like Onslaught] were the most competitive?
They realized that you could actually use twenty creatures as a necessary evil to win in non-creature ways.
Tooth and Nail became a Tribal staple as did Goblin Charbelcher, Isochron Scepter and Lion’s Eye Diamond’s ability to feed Auriok Salvagers.
Tribal decks seemed to be winning tournaments without any real focus on creature combat or creature-type themes. To me this simply wasn’t the point of Tribal Wars."
Have things changed? Since you were even named in the article (here: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/multiplayer/12117_Blog_Elemental_A_Tr...), I'd love to hear your thoughts on the evolution of the game, Bazaar of Baghdad. How many Isochron Scepters did you see today?
TBH, I think your perspective on Tribal is quite inaccurate. I would advise you to play in some events to get a better feel for what gets played, what is overpowered etc. Today I played against a Sword, but before that I don't remember when was the last time I did. It is banned in most of events anyway (and in my opinion it is not a particularly problematic card anyway - it costs you 5 mana before it *potentially* does something)
My comment about price also stands for regular and pure. Actually, I think if anything underdog is a format that comparatively requires higher investment to get higher winning percentage, because non-tribal cards are more important in a format with weaker creatures.
Yes, some of the inexpensive decks can win. These happen during Underdog events, most often.
I'm specifically targeting the Regular and Pure events, for cost evaluation. What were the costs of today's winning decks? How many of them sport expensive dual lands? How expensive was their NON-tribal cards? I think it's odd that I can't play Knights as effectively because their leader was purified, but how many winning decks have Loci in play? How many non-tribal cards cost close or above 10 tickets? Is it tribal, or a bunch a tribal creatures that abuse dual lands, artifacts, or other expensive cards?
When soldiers swing with a neat sword,
...and merfolk swing with that same neat sword,
...and zombies attack with that same sword,
...and spirits hack with that same sword,
...while their controller drops Wasteland -
let's stop pretending this is about tribes: it's more about who can equip said sword first for what-was-my-tribe-again? Can "Wastelanders" or "Swordsmen" be new tribes, because that's what I've been seeing. Again, this is just my casual observations. I'm not asking for the format to change; it's my choice to join or not, and again, everyone has been pretty cool with my ramblings and respect. My comments are just my observations about the cost of the format, and an indictment that tribal wars in regular or pure events is less about a tribe, and more about how a few select, repeated, and relatively expensive cards rule the format, with like-colored creatures asked to perfect the use of said select power cards.
Would anyone be willing to post a competitive vanilla deck that would have hung with today's matches? How about a 1CMC deck to play against today's challengers? Face it- they wouldn't stand a chance. When this happens, for me at least, this game becomes about getting super-expensive cards, but tribes are an afterthought.
Seriously, though, what cards constitute a shell? If I sport a white deck without a Swords to Plowshares, or a non-Lightning Bolt red deck, do I have a prayer? Given all of the non-basic lands, be sure to add a playset of Wastelands, too, since they're what all the cool kids use.
We talk about the impact of All is Dust, and here it is again. We question the use of Cloudposts, yet here they are again. When a card is a staple in the format, but isn't part of thee format theme, it seems like an odd inclusion. Sure, Cloudposts are "only" a nickel at MTGOTraders.com, but those of you familiar with Standard Pauper will remember that Delver of Secrets was either the deck you played or the deck to whom you lost. I'd hate to think of Tribal Wars as a shell game of certain core cards flung at an opponent's head, while some critters of inconsequential value also run around on the board just to use those certain specific cards.
Yes, I can spend less than 2 tickets to sport a competitive deck. Yes, a simple Naturalize - a common and inexpensive card - could easily destroy a Sword, for example. There's always an answer to any given card. Without sideboards, player's would have to pack hate for a very select choice of common targets, thus thinning their tribe. In contrast, the Sword player needs only to worry about their swords being equipped, thus gaining card advantage and using the sword to handle whatever else their opponent's play.
ComixWriter, in Tribal you can make a competitive deck with less than 10 tickets. You can't make every possible deck that you want, but you can make lots of different aggro, midrange and control decks for not a lot of money that will have a solid chance at winning.
And as far as the playing field not being even - that's much more a function of different player types and deckbuilding styles (it's a very diverse crowd), and not so much of them not being financially able to make decks that have good winning percentage.
I offer a suggestion, based on observations:
If tribes are the most important part of playing Tribal Legacy events like this, perhaps restrict the MTGO financial cost of non-tribal cards.
Tribal= 20+ tribal creature cards* which means that at least 40 other cards likely compose the deck. Subtracting costs on non-basic lands, the cost of the remaining cards in that deck cannot trump the tribal costs.
For example, a deck sporting a bunch of inexpensive soldiers may find themselves with only about $2.00 to build the rest of its deck. A deck with a lot of Legends might be costly, but also drops those expensive non-tribal cards, too.
*- Out of curiosity, if tribes matter, why can't non-creature spells that create a tribal member be counted as part of the tribe shell? In a way, a deck that used copies of "Raise the Alarm," "Even the Odds," etc. but didn't have at least 20 type:Creature (soldier) wouldn't count? Wouldn't wizards use spells in unique ways to build their army in unconventional ways, like using sorceries, instants, or enchantments?
Finally, while I like the restrictions imposed on winning decks, I think a firmer opportunity may open the playing field. What if all weekly winners must aim for an unlocked achievement? Let's face it- it's not that one really cool rare card that helped someone win- it was their access to it and other potential powerful cards. If you faced a millionaire each week, would it matter if they were locked out of a handful of bomb-rares or insanely powered cards? I submit that winners need more than money to build a deck; make winners prove their durability beyond their account balance by forcing more diversity, more creativity, and more balance. How many decks made for today's event qualify for an achievement unlock? Did anyone even TRY to unlock an accomplishment in a Regular or Pure event?
Here's a tongue-in-cheek new achievement for your consideration:
"Daddy Warbucks" - register a deck with the highest financial cost. This can be unlocked multiple times by multiple people. Just keep a rolling total of the current cost as the most expensive deck list that season.
ComixWriter: you should read the High Price of Winning for past weeks. This week, as said in the article, has been peculiar, at least for what the trend has been in recent times. From the cheapest winner list you can see how you can win an event with as low as a $2 deck. In fact, all the most powerful tribes come in mono-colored, cheap builds.
After reading "The High Price of Winning," and watching some Regular matches today, I am glad I had some difficulties that prevented me from attending. It'd have been a slaughter.
With Swords of X and Y flying around, cast by multiple dual lands and wielded by Legendary creatures, I don't think I can financially compete with the current builds. Sure, any given deck on any given day COULD win. Things like mana problems or poor execution of triggers on the stack could work to my favor. Does anyone really think a new player is going to be more adept on navigating success with either of those issues than the current regular winners?
For me, I guess it comes down to a "Have" vs "Have Not" mentality. In no real world would multiple achievements be unlocked in events like today: No vanilla deck has hope, and few 1cmc decks would stand a chance. I had difficulties with adding new cards from BFZ, but there's probably a work around that I don't know.
Maybe if there were ever a pauper tribal event, MAYBE this could level the playing field. In a way, the glamour of tribal washes from my eyes. It's more about which particular tribe can equip a cool sword that, really, has absolutely zero to do with the core tribe. It's more about dropping a spiffy ramp land that does more tricks than a lot of common or uncommon creatures. Let's stop pretending that tribes matter for Regular or Pure events- its about how the most powerful cards can fit into any given tribe. Maybe a core shell of Wastelands, Lightning Bolts, Swords to Plowshares, and Swords of X and Y should be defaults for everyone; just build a deck that takes advantage of those core shell cards, be they weenie soldiers of a league of mythic rare Avatars.
I congratulate those who played- you are far braver, far richer, and far more skilled than I am. At this point, I don't think I will be participating in future events. I just don't see a level playing field at this time. Thanks, everyone, for being quite welcoming, though.
My guess is that at the event, being a judge, he played it correctly.
When writing it up he probably wrote it from memory and since for the story it didn't matter, he didn't notice.
It works out to about the same thing with the difference being the two permanents are exiled and not placed in the graveyard. The defending player chooses which two permanents are exiled. Thus, in effect, it is sacrificing.
I know this was your prerelease but you didn't process that Bane of Bala Ged makes defender exile not sacrifice
Thanks for the compliments, guys. And to romellos and the previous interviewee MisterMojoRising for being so available despite the busy times in real life.
And since I ultimately forgot to include it in the article, here's a couple views of Sultanahmet, romellos's favorite district in Istanbul (which is fitting as it takes its name from an Ottoman Sultan bearing his same real name, Ahmet).
The player whom current and former champions alike laud as the toughest to play against. An excellent interview for a player whom, despite missing half a year this season, still has over a hundred points on the board.
Thanks Michelle I hope to bounce back asap :)
Yea it is super sad to give up Modern online for a bit. I will be working on getting back into on some level or another. I appreciate your offer. This site has been a huge blessing with the great support and players located throughout.
Dave,
Thanks for the kind words. As for a white weenie deck the biggest think it would be lacking is an efficient anthem effect. Gideon works but costing 4 is usually not good enough due to Languish and Radiant Flames. Consul's Lieutenant could be good enough but I am just not sure. But rest assured that I am working on it :)
Very glad that everybody is safe and that you had the means of repairing the car. Sad that it means we can't test Modern against each other for a while.
Like before, if you are feeling an itch for Modern and it's not stuff I'm actively using, let me know and you can borrow a deck.
- Gio
Fantastic interview from both parties. I feel articles like these can really help recruit new blood.
Great interview, was looking forward to it, as I really like Romellos both as a player and as a person.
We've battled in a lot of matches over the years and I hope we get to do that even more in the future.
Great article, very inspiring to read it.
The new cards made for C15 will be distributed as part of the prize packs for the Legendary Cube draft, so they'll still be available online. They will not, however, just be selling the entire C15 decks in the store as they have previously. Why are they doing it this way? Your guess is as good as mine.