Alex's list is pretty nice. We both agree that ravenous rats is a good inclusion when it can trade with creatures. If I wanted to run more discard MD, it would definitely be Unburden due to its cycle ability and the fact that Wrench Mind is a little weak against combo.
But in regards to WW, I always make sure they fear me. 4x Edict MD. 4x Blood in the SB. Fun times!
The funny thing about speculators, bad ones as this guy appears to be, is that they can't read cards. I bought 4x of EVERY ally for $6 back in November. That's right, all of them for $6 total. Part of being a good speculator is knowing how to spot valuable commodeties BEFORE the trend. I can't tell you how many times I have bought 4x of a card well before the market inflated. The most recent being Baneslayer Angel, which I bought at 8 tickets 2 weeks after the M10 release online. Reading cards and recognizing the sleeper hits is massivly important. Back when I was still doing paper magic, I bought up all of my area's Greater Gargadons. People laughed at me saying that the card was worthless and I was an idiot. When it hit $10 going into world's, I could have made a killing off the people who had given them to me for free. I didn't because I had that many because I was attempting to see if I could fill an entire trade binder with them. Hoarding is still wrong and I don't believe it it.
To this guy's point of hoarding Kabira Evangel. If this guy was my stock broker, I would have fired him..... and possibly burned down his house. This kind of logic is like buying in Marvel Comics. It only goes up when a movie comes out, which makes you kind of dumb for owning it, and you can only sell it to idiots that are dumber than you. lol
p.s. the same trend was missed when Ravnica came out. Everyone wanted there 4x $13 Heirarchs, but missed buy 4x Life from the Loam when they were at $2. That's how I got 6 of them and then traded the extra 2 for those Heirarchs I didn't get after the price on Heirachs died.
If you think allies will become hot over the next weeks or so, you should invest your money into earthquakes and day of judgement (day of judgement is in the block, so again don't expect it to rise much.)
If you want an educated guess on what to buy, try malakir bloodwitch
It seems some other elements of WW decks are being speculated, at least the rares are scarce despite there not being a successful build utilizing the ones I'm looking for.
Some form of allies is going to take off at least to a certain extent. Even if I only sell them for 1 each, I got them for .1 each. Would be 72 profit.
I tried this one earlier in the week so I don't remember all my picks exactly, but I'm pretty sure I ended up with a lot of the same black cards and a few of the strong red cards as well. No more need to splash for the fireball. It seemed like it could be stronger than your BW since there could be fewer mana issues
It may not have been that poster, but *someone* bought them all up, and that someone (or someones) will probably not see a lot growth on this speculation buying. Too many more are going to be coming into the system.
I, too, have removed all my Brave the Elements from my MD. It is just too unreliable. It works really well against the mirror match and against vampires. I also pulled all my equipment. Most match-ups I end up seeing is U/W and R/G burn/Valakut. After they wipe my board, top decking equipment is just a waste of time. Plus, I needed thos slots for removal. I am running Pitfall Trap mainboard, which I am debating removing as well, but it does pay off in the mirror match and against vampires. So sometimes I can sneak in that Game 1 win against vampires and then side in my vampire hate. Granted my WW has shifted a little more towards control. I MD 4 Day of Judgement, 4 Journey, 3 Pitfall Trap. Overall, as the block currently stands, I don't think mono-white is strong enuough to be a contender. The R/W version of this deck is just so much better. Better removal and better damage generators.
I started out with the equipment version of WW, but there was just too much removal in black and red to deal with. The deck benefits from having a lot of creatures in play, which is something that is hard to count on right now. Especially keeping something like Armament Master on the board. That guy is a giant drag on the team.
Goblins/reddeck wins is no more of a problem than turn 1-2 combo. It just makes the game unfun. Not a problem if you play one of those types of decks. Winning makes up for the lack of fun had all around and at the same time takes the sting out of people insulting you for doing so.
I know I'm walking a fine line here, but the point I was attempting to make is that Goblin and Burn decks are the dominant deck type at the moment, however they are not as dominant as the worst case offenders in other formats (faeries, jund, etc).
It's one thing to say that a deck is dominant (or has the highest representation in top 8 decklists) It's another thing to say that we need to adjust the banned list in order to address this "problem."
Goblin and burn decks are some of the cheapest decks in the format. They also are relatively easier to pick up and play. I think these reasons explain much of the dominance of goblins and burn in the format. The deck can be beaten without dedicated maindeck hate.
Now my opponent's use of maindeck anti-red cards was at least partially justified whether or not I agree with the decision or not. I used that story as an explanation as to why I'm looking at this kind of data. It wasn't meant to say that my opponent was wrong to do what he did.
I'm pretty sure that this is the worst attempt at speculating that I've ever heard of.
Speculating on an *in print* rare right before a release event that will drop thousands more in the system seems like a less than cunning plan.
People looking for Evangels: post a reasonable buy ad and wait. Tons are entering the system through drafts/sealed, and many more will be coming with WWK.
Actually I'd say Dredge is one of the easiest decks to play in Classic. Once you play it a bit, you relaise there are only one or 2 decisions you ever need to make. There are only 3 levels you can pull....Ichroid back into play (if you run them), Therapy, or Dreed Return.
After turn 1 the deck doesn't really offer any other decisions to think about. And with Bazaar, you don't even have to think in turn 1 any more.
he does mention that the orzhov deck is only a shell/good starting point. I played it last night and it beat some convoluted U/W blink something splashing black for crypt rats deck...
[quote]Also, paper magic is a good example of WOTC reluctance to do reissues. Even people like Mark Rosewater have stated that they have no opinion or concern about the secondary market on singles, which is what we're talking about here. And why should they? They don't sell singles, they sell packs. That's where they make their money. Why should they care what the price of FoW is?[/quote]
Yet they quite obviously DO have concerns, or else they would rerelease expensive cards (like duals) regularly to increase pack sales.
Also note this quote for the online game's reprint policy...
....damn I can't find it, I'll have to paraphrase (used to be my sig on the official boards)...
Magic Online Reprint Policy: "Once a set has gone from the Online Store, Wizards will never put that set on sale again"
So while this does not prevent FoW reappearing in MED5, it does prevent MED1 etc being put on sale again, ever. This is why they used sneaky means to get more IPA online back when its scarcity adversely affected online Extended.
Wizards have been here long enough to know that collectability and value retention is what made the game a success. Re-releasing any cards or sets undermines both and must be very varefully considered. Existing players get annoyed and leave the game, as they lose trust in Wizards. Potential new players shy away as they can see no return for their investment if the collectability is compromised.
I'd be happy to test with you next time we are both online.
Couldn't Rune Snag or Mana Leak fill the same roll while not being dead cards vs. non aggro match ups?
I'd be happy to test with you next time we are both online.
Couldn't Rune Snag or Mana Leak fill the same roll while not being dead cards vs. non aggro match ups?
I'd be happy to test with you next time we are both online.
Couldn't Rune Snag or Mana Leak fill the same roll while not being dead cards vs. non aggro match ups?
Just looking at your graph for 100cs, 52% of decks are classed aggro by you. Of those, 48% are Rx decks (R, RW, RGW etc). That means that anyone wanting to compete in a 100cs tournament can expect to face a top-8 standard red'ish aggro deck virtually every other match. This far outweighs any other deck type in your chart. Doesn't this then count as a dominant deck? If not what would you define dominant as?
Personally, I would prefer to see a chart for 100cs like the one you've shown for Extended. No one deck type is over-represented. There appears to be plenty of wiggle room to innovate a decklist and still be competitive. From your 100cs chart I can understand why your 100cs 2-man opponent essentially pre-boarded against you. If he's expecting every other deck to be red why not?
And just to point out, you were playing a red deck as well so he was partly vindicated right? - shame he didn't have any other plans beyond his pro-red base though. Nice play with Orim's Thunder too. You know I don't remember seeing too many RW goblin decks. I'd love to see your deck list. Fancy posting it? (or if you've already posted it - I apologise for being poorly read and could you re-post the link please? :) )
Alex's list is pretty nice. We both agree that ravenous rats is a good inclusion when it can trade with creatures. If I wanted to run more discard MD, it would definitely be Unburden due to its cycle ability and the fact that Wrench Mind is a little weak against combo.
But in regards to WW, I always make sure they fear me. 4x Edict MD. 4x Blood in the SB. Fun times!
and that is exactly why i rare draft and wait.
i sold my 4 scapshifts for 30, i mean sure, i think i lost the hell out of those drafts, but look at me!!!
i like cards
euurgghh.. I hate hoarders! :(
**** Free the tempest block cards!!! ****
And I hate people who picked up Baneslayers for less than $10 (actually, this last is just green-eyed envy, but I believe totally justifiable :) )
Incidentally, talking about speculating why is Counterbalance still going up?
And on a technical note: Are you aware that some of your chart links are duplicated in the list? Just thought I'd mention in case you weren't.
The funny thing about speculators, bad ones as this guy appears to be, is that they can't read cards. I bought 4x of EVERY ally for $6 back in November. That's right, all of them for $6 total. Part of being a good speculator is knowing how to spot valuable commodeties BEFORE the trend. I can't tell you how many times I have bought 4x of a card well before the market inflated. The most recent being Baneslayer Angel, which I bought at 8 tickets 2 weeks after the M10 release online. Reading cards and recognizing the sleeper hits is massivly important. Back when I was still doing paper magic, I bought up all of my area's Greater Gargadons. People laughed at me saying that the card was worthless and I was an idiot. When it hit $10 going into world's, I could have made a killing off the people who had given them to me for free. I didn't because I had that many because I was attempting to see if I could fill an entire trade binder with them. Hoarding is still wrong and I don't believe it it.
To this guy's point of hoarding Kabira Evangel. If this guy was my stock broker, I would have fired him..... and possibly burned down his house. This kind of logic is like buying in Marvel Comics. It only goes up when a movie comes out, which makes you kind of dumb for owning it, and you can only sell it to idiots that are dumber than you. lol
p.s. the same trend was missed when Ravnica came out. Everyone wanted there 4x $13 Heirarchs, but missed buy 4x Life from the Loam when they were at $2. That's how I got 6 of them and then traded the extra 2 for those Heirarchs I didn't get after the price on Heirachs died.
If you think allies will become hot over the next weeks or so, you should invest your money into earthquakes and day of judgement (day of judgement is in the block, so again don't expect it to rise much.)
If you want an educated guess on what to buy, try malakir bloodwitch
It seems some other elements of WW decks are being speculated, at least the rares are scarce despite there not being a successful build utilizing the ones I'm looking for.
Some form of allies is going to take off at least to a certain extent. Even if I only sell them for 1 each, I got them for .1 each. Would be 72 profit.
Nice article btw. Lots of follow-up conversation.
I tried this one earlier in the week so I don't remember all my picks exactly, but I'm pretty sure I ended up with a lot of the same black cards and a few of the strong red cards as well. No more need to splash for the fireball. It seemed like it could be stronger than your BW since there could be fewer mana issues
It looks like Skred is there as the 9th 1-cost removal.
I, too, have removed all my Brave the Elements from my MD. It is just too unreliable. It works really well against the mirror match and against vampires. I also pulled all my equipment. Most match-ups I end up seeing is U/W and R/G burn/Valakut. After they wipe my board, top decking equipment is just a waste of time. Plus, I needed thos slots for removal. I am running Pitfall Trap mainboard, which I am debating removing as well, but it does pay off in the mirror match and against vampires. So sometimes I can sneak in that Game 1 win against vampires and then side in my vampire hate. Granted my WW has shifted a little more towards control. I MD 4 Day of Judgement, 4 Journey, 3 Pitfall Trap. Overall, as the block currently stands, I don't think mono-white is strong enuough to be a contender. The R/W version of this deck is just so much better. Better removal and better damage generators.
I started out with the equipment version of WW, but there was just too much removal in black and red to deal with. The deck benefits from having a lot of creatures in play, which is something that is hard to count on right now. Especially keeping something like Armament Master on the board. That guy is a giant drag on the team.
Goblins/reddeck wins is no more of a problem than turn 1-2 combo. It just makes the game unfun. Not a problem if you play one of those types of decks. Winning makes up for the lack of fun had all around and at the same time takes the sting out of people insulting you for doing so.
Here I thought he was trying to be funny.
I know I'm walking a fine line here, but the point I was attempting to make is that Goblin and Burn decks are the dominant deck type at the moment, however they are not as dominant as the worst case offenders in other formats (faeries, jund, etc).
It's one thing to say that a deck is dominant (or has the highest representation in top 8 decklists) It's another thing to say that we need to adjust the banned list in order to address this "problem."
Goblin and burn decks are some of the cheapest decks in the format. They also are relatively easier to pick up and play. I think these reasons explain much of the dominance of goblins and burn in the format. The deck can be beaten without dedicated maindeck hate.
Now my opponent's use of maindeck anti-red cards was at least partially justified whether or not I agree with the decision or not. I used that story as an explanation as to why I'm looking at this kind of data. It wasn't meant to say that my opponent was wrong to do what he did.
My red/white goblin deck was not significantly different than the one I mention in this article.
http://puremtgo.com/articles/100-singleton-all-about-goblins
2 Comments for you, Sir.
1. Well played
2. Up yours
Stop this crap people! Get your 4x copies and move on.
Actually I'd say Dredge is one of the easiest decks to play in Classic. Once you play it a bit, you relaise there are only one or 2 decisions you ever need to make. There are only 3 levels you can pull....Ichroid back into play (if you run them), Therapy, or Dreed Return.
After turn 1 the deck doesn't really offer any other decisions to think about. And with Bazaar, you don't even have to think in turn 1 any more.
he does mention that the orzhov deck is only a shell/good starting point. I played it last night and it beat some convoluted U/W blink something splashing black for crypt rats deck...
[quote]Also, paper magic is a good example of WOTC reluctance to do reissues. Even people like Mark Rosewater have stated that they have no opinion or concern about the secondary market on singles, which is what we're talking about here. And why should they? They don't sell singles, they sell packs. That's where they make their money. Why should they care what the price of FoW is?[/quote]
Yet they quite obviously DO have concerns, or else they would rerelease expensive cards (like duals) regularly to increase pack sales.
Also note this quote for the online game's reprint policy...
....damn I can't find it, I'll have to paraphrase (used to be my sig on the official boards)...
Magic Online Reprint Policy: "Once a set has gone from the Online Store, Wizards will never put that set on sale again"
So while this does not prevent FoW reappearing in MED5, it does prevent MED1 etc being put on sale again, ever. This is why they used sneaky means to get more IPA online back when its scarcity adversely affected online Extended.
Wizards have been here long enough to know that collectability and value retention is what made the game a success. Re-releasing any cards or sets undermines both and must be very varefully considered. Existing players get annoyed and leave the game, as they lose trust in Wizards. Potential new players shy away as they can see no return for their investment if the collectability is compromised.
80? thats disgusting. Stop raping card prices for your own selfishness. People like you make this game more expensive than it needs to be.
I'd be happy to test with you next time we are both online.
Couldn't Rune Snag or Mana Leak fill the same roll while not being dead cards vs. non aggro match ups?
I'd be happy to test with you next time we are both online.
Couldn't Rune Snag or Mana Leak fill the same roll while not being dead cards vs. non aggro match ups?
I'd be happy to test with you next time we are both online.
Couldn't Rune Snag or Mana Leak fill the same roll while not being dead cards vs. non aggro match ups?
Just looking at your graph for 100cs, 52% of decks are classed aggro by you. Of those, 48% are Rx decks (R, RW, RGW etc). That means that anyone wanting to compete in a 100cs tournament can expect to face a top-8 standard red'ish aggro deck virtually every other match. This far outweighs any other deck type in your chart. Doesn't this then count as a dominant deck? If not what would you define dominant as?
Personally, I would prefer to see a chart for 100cs like the one you've shown for Extended. No one deck type is over-represented. There appears to be plenty of wiggle room to innovate a decklist and still be competitive. From your 100cs chart I can understand why your 100cs 2-man opponent essentially pre-boarded against you. If he's expecting every other deck to be red why not?
And just to point out, you were playing a red deck as well so he was partly vindicated right? - shame he didn't have any other plans beyond his pro-red base though. Nice play with Orim's Thunder too. You know I don't remember seeing too many RW goblin decks. I'd love to see your deck list. Fancy posting it? (or if you've already posted it - I apologise for being poorly read and could you re-post the link please? :) )