Ahah, do people really wants "copyrights" on pdc decks? Orzhov blink lists are all the same, burn lists idem, cloak lists too etc. The fact that only few common cards can be used competitively is the reason why decks are all the same!
i realy am enjoying shards, its more of a set thats fun to play just within shards therefore cards like vithian stinger are not underpowered (still not great though),heres just a few comments
u realise that u cant return an unearthed creature to your hand as it will be removed from play and therefore removed from the game, elvish visionary is a great card, devourable and card draw and also cloudheath drake is far better then steelclad serpent id also personaly rather have a akrasan squire then a wild nacatl have a great day!
wow. People still complain about that? Awkward. Look, it's on the net, your name is attached somewhere to it, and I can promise you that you were no innovator. Someone else came up with that idea if not before you, then close to when you did, do not get your stuff all up in a bunch.
it's from 31th august i have changed it since but still
the second list has been created by lulthyme even if the sideboard isnt what he plays (his sideboard seems better shatter that makes 3 and pyroblast are good card in burn)
Ivo's untuned Forest fire (correct version - this replaces the list right below this, which obviously adds up to more than 60; my first submission, "Ivo's Forest Fire" isn't replaced by either of these posts, and stands as a separate submission).
4x Kindle 4x Muscle Sliver (8)
3x Fireslinger 3x Seeker of Skybreak (14)
3x Harrow 3x Sandstone Warrior 2x Crown of flames <- Not 3, as below (22) <- Not 21, as below
2x Elvish fury 2x Mogg Fanatic 1x Rootwalla <- Not 2, as below 2x Spike Drone (29) <- we are back at a correct count here, with 29
I don't mean for this to replace my previous submission, as I understand it we are not limited to one deck submission.
I personally prefer my first submission (where I already made an effort to include some variety). But I don't know what WotC is looking for, so I wanted to also submit a list with slightly increased variety. With that in mind, I intentionally "untuned" Ivo's Forest Fire (below) to include some of the card choices I described in the post "explaining my choices" (also below).
I hadn't actually included Pincer Beetles in the previous deck as I was tight with space, and they do clash with the beneficial targetting effects in the deck, and I had cut the relatively useless frog tongue cantrip - but here there is room for them, so the skill testing opportunities are more numerous, and there are more directions open for aspiring deckbuilders to evolve the deck towards.
Still, I really liked my core deck and how it tied with the Forest Fire name... So I kept the core, dilluting to 3x most previously 4x. I re-distributing some 2x and 1x and added new 1x (Broken Fall, Frog Tongue, Pincer Beetles).
The core is still strongly Forest Fire in feel... 4x Forest : Muscle Sliver; 3x Forest: Seeker of Skybreak, Harrow 4xFire : Kindle; 3x Fire: Fireslinger, Crown of Flames, Sandstone Warrior
Without more descriptions, here is Ivo's untuned Forest Fire:
4x Kindle 4x Muscle Sliver (8)
3x Fireslinger 3x Seeker of Skybreak (14)
3x Harrow 3x Sandstone Warrior 3x Crown of flames (21)
I had toyed with the idea of rain of gore, but unfortunatly i feel it would sit in your sb way too much, taking up spots that would better be suited for other match ups. Against any necro deck your only real option is to delay them going off, or countering necro hopefully removing necro from the game shortly after. This actually worked for me against a necro helm deck, i removed his kill condition hoping he did not have a back up. Against you unfortunatly your deck went off way to fast, and did not have an answer for your necro. We def need to stop meeting third or second round in these tournys, one or the either knocks the other out. Keep up the articles.
Shards of Alara? Two words - Executioner's Capsule. Imagine it with Trinket Mage, and with Leonin Squire. People will be using it in pauper events a lot, I'm pretty sure.
onli if there on 2 or 1. firestorm needs a target for each point of damage. so for instance if you want to firestorm some one for 4 damage you need 4 targets him, you, and 2 creatures.
A firestorm would become a standard sb card to play against the possible Soul Spike deck, but not much else would work excepting force spike or some other U counter. Nice deck!
when i first saw relic my only thought was this card is the anti thresh. drop it vs thresh and they will not be swinging at you whell possibly ever with anything bigger than 1/1
Since you mentioned my deck, I'll take that as an invitation to comment, specifically to add my own views of the "Old School" vs. burn matchup. In summary, I certainly agree with your conclusion that the duals matter to the matchup. But I find the route to that result interesting also.
Most of the readers here no doubt already know what makes a burn deck tick, but it's still worth comment to provide a frame of reference and some focus on the key elements of the matchup. (Note that a more traditional RDW build, with at least a few `real`creatures, will play somewhat differently than straight burn.)
The burn deck's win condition could well be described as very fragile - if the game doesn't go "bang, bang, you're dead", then the burn player can look forward to a long uphill battle, with rather poor prospects of winning in the end.
The burn deck is very much a tempo-based deck, with some controllish elements available as backup. The burn deck's cards are by definition much "lower quality" than many of the opponent's cards in the mid-to-long game. As a very simple illustration, a lightning bolt will only do 3 damage in the entire game. A Jackal Pup, unobstructed and not removed, will do 2 damage every turn.
The important implication of the above is that burn dislikes making simple 1/1 card trades. It's cards are most useful when they can smother the opponent in 20 points worth of damage in the first 3 or 4 turns. Except for the most game-altering creatures, your lightning bolts are almost always better aimed at your opponent. Every creature you kill ups the chances of running out of steam.
Having said that, here`s how I see burn interacting with zoo decks in general, and Pete`s deck specifically.
Against a mostly RGW zoo build, burn starts with an advantage of being perhaps 1/2 a turn faster. Add in a few free shocks from RAV duals, plus pyroclasm after boards, gets a pretty favourable matchup for burn. I haven`t played against any of these decks since MED2 came out, but I suspect that speed + pyroclasm will still give burn the edge.
Dark zoo, on the other hand, is a different story. Especially very dark zoo like the list above. Here`s how the burn deck feels about some of the cards in that list: a) Duress is a bad thing (see comments on 1/1 card trades above) b) Hymn is twice as bad c) Thoughtseize is tolerable, since burn receives a free shock in return d) Jitte includes lifegain possibilities. Two Jittes requires 4 pithing needles (or null rods) in response, cutting into my burn spells. (Did I mention burn is not keen on repeating lifegain?) e) Bob (Dark Confidant) is BAD news. Card disadvantage is never a good thing, but when it could include discard spells, it becomes a very bad thing. Bob requires the use of a removal spell. f) Hippie is bad if the burn player has a few cards left, and must be removed in that case. If the hand is empty, taking 2 per turn is OK. g) Goyf will kill me if my hand is empty. But as long as my hand is full, I should be able to kill Goyf`s owner first. h) Ritual is a must to even up the deck speeds a bit. But that one-card disadvantage is a breath of relief for burn. On ritual-hippie-bolt, I have no regrets for the bolt.
All in all, I rate the "Old School" deck a fairly tough matchup for burn. And there`s where I see those duals coming in. If "Old School" starts that match with one hand tied behind its back, so to speak, by giving away 1 or 2 free shocks from RAV duals, it swings the match pretty heavily in burn`s favour.
On the other hand, if the "Old School" manabase is as painless as my mountains, then the combination of card advantage and burn`s inherent disadvantage in 1/1 card trades has a chance to do its stuff.
I must comment that all of the above is educated speculation, based on my feel for the matchups pre-MED2. I have not played against any zoo since that release, nor seen any mirror burn matches.
p.s.: Thanks a lot for that decklist Pete - I`ll look forward to trying it out myself. My two favourite mono-black casual (but strong) classic decks both have a foundation based mostly on Bob-Hymn-Hippie. I already know I like to play that deck - trying it out in a competitive classic form (without having to do the work and trial-and-error to develop the decklist) will be great fun. (Mind you, while I`ve splurged on duals relative to you, my test deck will likely be a 2-goyf 4-mongoose version.)
Ahah, do people really wants "copyrights" on pdc decks? Orzhov blink lists are all the same, burn lists idem, cloak lists too etc. The fact that only few common cards can be used competitively is the reason why decks are all the same!
i realy am enjoying shards, its more of a set thats fun to play just within shards therefore cards like vithian stinger are not underpowered (still not great though),heres just a few comments
u realise that u cant return an unearthed creature to your hand as it will be removed from play and therefore removed from the game, elvish visionary is a great card, devourable and card draw and also cloudheath drake is far better then steelclad serpent id also personaly rather have a akrasan squire then a wild nacatl have a great day!
wow. People still complain about that? Awkward. Look, it's on the net, your name is attached somewhere to it, and I can promise you that you were no innovator. Someone else came up with that idea if not before you, then close to when you did, do not get your stuff all up in a bunch.
now we need to work on our new project whiffster..
this orzhov blink is the decklist i played in updc 4.12 which was a future extended event (not classic)
it would be at least fair to post the name of the one who create the decklists you took.
http://www.pdcmagic.com/gatherling/deck.php?mode=view&id=5480
it's from 31th august i have changed it since but still
the second list has been created by lulthyme even if the sideboard isnt what he plays (his sideboard seems better shatter that makes 3 and pyroblast are good card in burn)
thx for the kind words guys.
DD you are absolutly right we need to not see each other unless its the finals.
UTH itll be the 9th box not the 7th.
I posted the wrong decklist. The correct one is:
Ivo's untuned Forest fire (correct version - this replaces the list right below this, which obviously adds up to more than 60; my first submission, "Ivo's Forest Fire" isn't replaced by either of these posts, and stands as a separate submission).
4x Kindle
4x Muscle Sliver
(8)
3x Fireslinger
3x Seeker of Skybreak
(14)
3x Harrow
3x Sandstone Warrior
2x Crown of flames <- Not 3, as below
(22) <- Not 21, as below
2x Elvish fury
2x Mogg Fanatic
1x Rootwalla <- Not 2, as below
2x Spike Drone
(29) <- we are back at a correct count here, with 29
1x Broken Fall
1x Coiled Tinviper
1x Frog Tongue
1x Lotus Petal
1x Pincer Beetles
1x Rolling Thunder
1x Skyshroud Troll
1x Stun
(37)
11x Forest
12x Mountain
(60)
I don't mean for this to replace my previous submission, as I understand it we are not limited to one deck submission.
I personally prefer my first submission (where I already made an effort to include some variety). But I don't know what WotC is looking for, so I wanted to also submit a list with slightly increased variety. With that in mind, I intentionally "untuned" Ivo's Forest Fire (below) to include some of the card choices I described in the post "explaining my choices" (also below).
I hadn't actually included Pincer Beetles in the previous deck as I was tight with space, and they do clash with the beneficial targetting effects in the deck, and I had cut the relatively useless frog tongue cantrip - but here there is room for them, so the skill testing opportunities are more numerous, and there are more directions open for aspiring deckbuilders to evolve the deck towards.
Still, I really liked my core deck and how it tied with the Forest Fire name... So I kept the core, dilluting to 3x most previously 4x. I re-distributing some 2x and 1x and added new 1x (Broken Fall, Frog Tongue, Pincer Beetles).
The core is still strongly Forest Fire in feel...
4x Forest : Muscle Sliver; 3x Forest: Seeker of Skybreak, Harrow
4xFire : Kindle; 3x Fire: Fireslinger, Crown of Flames, Sandstone Warrior
Without more descriptions, here is Ivo's untuned Forest Fire:
4x Kindle
4x Muscle Sliver
(8)
3x Fireslinger
3x Seeker of Skybreak
(14)
3x Harrow
3x Sandstone Warrior
3x Crown of flames
(21)
2x Elvish fury
2x Mogg Fanatic
2x Rootwalla
2x Spike Drone
(29)
1x Broken Fall
1x Coiled Tinviper
1x Frog Tongue
1x Lotus Petal
1x Pincer Beetles
1x Rolling Thunder
1x Skyshroud Troll
1x Stun
(37)
11x Forest
12x Mountain
(60)
I had toyed with the idea of rain of gore, but unfortunatly i feel it would sit in your sb way too much, taking up spots that would better be suited for other match ups. Against any necro deck your only real option is to delay them going off, or countering necro hopefully removing necro from the game shortly after. This actually worked for me against a necro helm deck, i removed his kill condition hoping he did not have a back up. Against you unfortunatly your deck went off way to fast, and did not have an answer for your necro. We def need to stop meeting third or second round in these tournys, one or the either knocks the other out. Keep up the articles.
Nice Article Whiffy - Trinket Stalker does seem to have lots of answers.
The added bonus of seeing your opponents deck is only relevant if the player does not concede to the helm activation.
I look forward to next week - Whiffy's Lunchbox 7:How I stormed to the Top8 of Saturdays Event!
I had forgotten it was the same number of targets as well. Doh!
Everytime Boin gives someone a decklist I end up dying a horrible death. It is nice to see you didn't break the cycle.
my mtgo handle is akasha_ and this is my shot.
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Kindle
3 Spike Drone
3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Seeker of Skybreak
3 Fireslinger
3 Elvish Fury
3 Trained Armodon
2 Rootwalla
2 Skyshroud Troll
2 Lightning Blast
1 Pincher Beetles
1 Broken Fall
1 Tranquility
1 Rolling Thunder
1 Crown of Flames
12 Forest
11 Mountain
Shards of Alara? Two words - Executioner's Capsule. Imagine it with Trinket Mage, and with Leonin Squire. People will be using it in pauper events a lot, I'm pretty sure.
-- Felorin
I tried to post a deck a while ago, but it looks like it didn't work......
Here's a re-do:
Silvers (16)
4x Muscle Sliver
4x Heart Sliver
4x Metalic Sliver
Other Creatrues (9)
4x Mogg Conscripts
1x Skyshroud Troll
1x Lowland Giant
2x Skyshround Elf
2x Fireslinger
Other Spells (11)
4x Kindle
1x Rolling Thunder
2x Elvish Fury
1x Respite
1x Lotus Petal
2x Blood Frenzy
Lands (24)
12x Forest
12x Mountain
onli if there on 2 or 1. firestorm needs a target for each point of damage. so for instance if you want to firestorm some one for 4 damage you need 4 targets him, you, and 2 creatures.
me too iceage.. I don't make that much money, but the money I do have for magic it just doesn't seem like I can justify 600 bucks for 20 cards..
A firestorm would become a standard sb card to play against the possible Soul Spike deck, but not much else would work excepting force spike or some other U counter. Nice deck!
Yeah Soul Spike in a Necro deck...what a shocker. I wish I had any interest in classic, it looks like a cakewalk. :P
I'm enjoying it so far, but small nitpick: Legacy bans, not restricts.
when i first saw relic my only thought was this card is the anti thresh. drop it vs thresh and they will not be swinging at you whell possibly ever with anything bigger than 1/1
No Overabundance in Extended any more! :)
As long as we are talking Legacy, Powerstone Minefield is also very handy and keeps down the small folk.
Since you mentioned my deck, I'll take that as an invitation to comment, specifically to add my own views of the "Old School" vs. burn matchup. In summary, I certainly agree with your conclusion that the duals matter to the matchup. But I find the route to that result interesting also.
Most of the readers here no doubt already know what makes a burn deck tick, but it's still worth comment to provide a frame of reference and some focus on the key elements of the matchup. (Note that a more traditional RDW build, with at least a few `real`creatures, will play somewhat differently than straight burn.)
The burn deck's win condition could well be described as very fragile - if the game doesn't go "bang, bang, you're dead", then the burn player can look forward to a long uphill battle, with rather poor prospects of winning in the end.
The burn deck is very much a tempo-based deck, with some controllish elements available as backup. The burn deck's cards are by definition much "lower quality" than many of the opponent's cards in the mid-to-long game. As a very simple illustration, a lightning bolt will only do 3 damage in the entire game. A Jackal Pup, unobstructed and not removed, will do 2 damage every turn.
The important implication of the above is that burn dislikes making simple 1/1 card trades. It's cards are most useful when they can smother the opponent in 20 points worth of damage in the first 3 or 4 turns. Except for the most game-altering creatures, your lightning bolts are almost always better aimed at your opponent. Every creature you kill ups the chances of running out of steam.
Having said that, here`s how I see burn interacting with zoo decks in general, and Pete`s deck specifically.
Against a mostly RGW zoo build, burn starts with an advantage of being perhaps 1/2 a turn faster. Add in a few free shocks from RAV duals, plus pyroclasm after boards, gets a pretty favourable matchup for burn. I haven`t played against any of these decks since MED2 came out, but I suspect that speed + pyroclasm will still give burn the edge.
Dark zoo, on the other hand, is a different story. Especially very dark zoo like the list above. Here`s how the burn deck feels about some of the cards in that list:
a) Duress is a bad thing (see comments on 1/1 card trades above)
b) Hymn is twice as bad
c) Thoughtseize is tolerable, since burn receives a free shock in return
d) Jitte includes lifegain possibilities. Two Jittes requires 4 pithing needles (or null rods) in response, cutting into my burn spells. (Did I mention burn is not keen on repeating lifegain?)
e) Bob (Dark Confidant) is BAD news. Card disadvantage is never a good thing, but when it could include discard spells, it becomes a very bad thing. Bob requires the use of a removal spell.
f) Hippie is bad if the burn player has a few cards left, and must be removed in that case. If the hand is empty, taking 2 per turn is OK.
g) Goyf will kill me if my hand is empty. But as long as my hand is full, I should be able to kill Goyf`s owner first.
h) Ritual is a must to even up the deck speeds a bit. But that one-card disadvantage is a breath of relief for burn. On ritual-hippie-bolt, I have no regrets for the bolt.
All in all, I rate the "Old School" deck a fairly tough matchup for burn. And there`s where I see those duals coming in. If "Old School" starts that match with one hand tied behind its back, so to speak, by giving away 1 or 2 free shocks from RAV duals, it swings the match pretty heavily in burn`s favour.
On the other hand, if the "Old School" manabase is as painless as my mountains, then the combination of card advantage and burn`s inherent disadvantage in 1/1 card trades has a chance to do its stuff.
I must comment that all of the above is educated speculation, based on my feel for the matchups pre-MED2. I have not played against any zoo since that release, nor seen any mirror burn matches.
p.s.: Thanks a lot for that decklist Pete - I`ll look forward to trying it out myself. My two favourite mono-black casual (but strong) classic decks both have a foundation based mostly on Bob-Hymn-Hippie. I already know I like to play that deck - trying it out in a competitive classic form (without having to do the work and trial-and-error to develop the decklist) will be great fun. (Mind you, while I`ve splurged on duals relative to you, my test deck will likely be a 2-goyf 4-mongoose version.)
Let it go man, it's never going to happy.
I can only dream of 3 tix dual lands, please oh please allow that to happy. Heck I won't even be that demanding, how about 8-10 tix duals!