I'm not saying it is better than Eidolon (and Eidolon does not promise value against every deck--affinity often empties its hand first, Living End might just never play a sub 4 CMC card other than living end). I'm just saying that it definitely has high potential, and in a lot of Burn lists, it'll be better than Grim Lavamancer and probably better than Nacatl.
In Game 1 of your matches, were you satisfied with how the Fierce Empaths functioned? (It seems risky to me to have only 1 card to find, yet two tutors for it).
Well true enough that Magic Online does not have an AI. (Though MD does.) And I don't want to sidetrack completely on to Forge, but I will say this: it is quite amazing for freeware/open source. (A testimony to the strength of the whole freeware/os community, though actually come to think of it not sure it IS actually open anymore?)
The thing I was getting at is that when that program was in even its early stages it was a project which required many brains working on it to get it even remotely playable (2008-9 as I recall, With many beta testers as well as contributors and the dev.)
Magic Online, whilst not having an AI is a far more complex engine and (generally) works for thousands of users across servers on the internet in a variety of modes (though I am still deeply frustrated that the ones we like best have been severely nerfed or just taken away). The complexity is not something that is easy to solve and yet they have done so, as Hogan, points out in the cast, for the most part. With some corner cases and bugs that haven't gone away.
There is so much more they can do particularly on the client side which would lead imho to a greater experience for us all and I mentioned some of them. Hogan's opinion is that they are going to be added slowly maybe but eventually. Maybe not exactly as we'd like them but progress is good.
Regarding your comment "when an unnamed knock off started, the guys doing the hard coding were having a tough time of it just producing a 10th of the cards, withOUT full rules enforcement".
I don't think that is a fair comparison. If you are speaking about "Forge", then I highlight that this knock off is coded by volunteers, which makes a huge difference because the time which they can dedicate to the coding is limited. This is not their day job. Plus, they managed to create an AI, something which the Magic Online team have never done.
Respectfully, I think THAT's the exaggeration. There was a time when that would likely have been true because the libraries and technologies and graphics were primitive and a lot needed to be improvised or just plain invented in order to put together a MMO or even a game like Portal/Portal 2 (which I admit I haven't played but is the kind of game of which you speak.) The technology has surpassed these games so much that spinoffs have been invented from them (League of Legends for example off of Dota off of WOW arena. Feel free to correct that if it isn't accurate.)
Whereas the game M:TG as we know it keeps growing by leaps and bounds and new mechanics keep being introduced which adds complexity on a logarithmic level. I am not sure how complex the game really is from a coding stand point exactly but I remember when a unnamed knock off started, the guys doing the hard coding were having a tough time of it just producing a 10th of the cards, withOUT full rules enforcement.
Thanks as per usual for listening and especially for commenting with some insight into the discussion. :D
Coding Magic Online to make thousands of card interactions work must not be a easy.
Yet let's not exaggerate. It is a piece of cake in comparison to the complexity in other games which require coding real-life physics, or a massively multiplayer world for example.
Cut/Ribbons - Misread it as "each player" not "each opponent" my mistake.
Combat Celebrant - Making the combo entirely available in red is defintely something. It does open up some deck design options particularly with Blood Moon.
Harsh Mentor - For me this is just worse than Eidolon most of the time. It has some strong applications against Affinity and Eldrazi Taxes may be another but I think it is definitely a sideboard card. There is a lot of risk of this being a two drop that does nothing against some decks as there is no promise of the value you get from Eidolon. Perhaps it could have made the Top 8 but I just don't rate it that highly.
A few things I would note about some of the red cards:
Cut to Ribbons - I am completely unsure why you say Ribbons is symetical. It says each opponent loses X life.
Combat Celebrant - I think the most exciting part of this card is that it allows a mono-red Kiki-Jiki combo kill. Which means support from cards like Blood Moon.
Harsh Mentor - I'm a bit shocked this is not in your top 8 (especially since you have Soul-Scar Mage in there). I think this will likely take the place of Grim Lavamancer in burn decks that ran that, and possibly up to 4 in the 75. It just wrecks affinity in a way that gives burn a much better shot. It also does a lot of work against Eldrazi taxes decks.
Yeah, we sometimes forget, as we reminisce over the near-total removal of multiplayer formats, the decimation of the casual format roster in general, the ruination of any form of chat, and the bugs still extant for months on end, that this is an exceedingly complex game with a mind-bogglingly huge number of moving parts and potential interactions. A quarter of a century of unique cards and yet we are able to play with the vast majority of them with people all over the world at almost any time.
So, what's the best card to represent the Kwisatz Haderach to cast from As Foretold?
Loved the Form of Arrakis nickname. I think I'm going to enjoy making Dune references throughout this block.
I generally agree with your guest host's assessment of Magic Online. It's not nearly as bad as the complainers think. It's just that Magic Online creates a lot of very passionate fans that want the product to be the best it can be. LEagles have basically enabled me to start playing again.
But we knew this already really. There are always unpleasant and needlessly aggravating people. The internet gives them a safe place to do it without getting punched which probably saves some people from being arrested, etc.
It strikes me that there are also different kinds of internet trolls, some of which are entertaining and some which just boggle the mind. The former are deal-able with, the latter must just be ignored.
I am quite sad that Pete finds his own comment section off limits now for interaction because of the trolling but it is the way things are in life. Some good, some bad. Good that we continue getting Pete's great articles, bad that we can't discuss them with him here and feel safe doing so.
Internet trolls reveal something very sad about humanity - namely that some people would choose to act like that in real life if they could get away with it. The internet grants the trolls a whole level of protection online which they would not have offline. Which makes the behaviour even more pathetic.
That is the only reason they are in the deck :) I like how easily adaptable the deck is. You can slowly add to it and it gets better. Always appreciate the comments Michelle!
Sorry about some of the images. Gatherer is currently down, so the links aren't working. If the card pics are there, you can ignore this.
I'm not saying it is better than Eidolon (and Eidolon does not promise value against every deck--affinity often empties its hand first, Living End might just never play a sub 4 CMC card other than living end). I'm just saying that it definitely has high potential, and in a lot of Burn lists, it'll be better than Grim Lavamancer and probably better than Nacatl.
I actually hated the card every time heh. I will be cutting it when I get some time to work on the deck.
Well glad I'm not the only one ;)
Hi,
In Game 1 of your matches, were you satisfied with how the Fierce Empaths functioned? (It seems risky to me to have only 1 card to find, yet two tutors for it).
Kindly noted Paul.
Well true enough that Magic Online does not have an AI. (Though MD does.) And I don't want to sidetrack completely on to Forge, but I will say this: it is quite amazing for freeware/open source. (A testimony to the strength of the whole freeware/os community, though actually come to think of it not sure it IS actually open anymore?)
The thing I was getting at is that when that program was in even its early stages it was a project which required many brains working on it to get it even remotely playable (2008-9 as I recall, With many beta testers as well as contributors and the dev.)
Magic Online, whilst not having an AI is a far more complex engine and (generally) works for thousands of users across servers on the internet in a variety of modes (though I am still deeply frustrated that the ones we like best have been severely nerfed or just taken away). The complexity is not something that is easy to solve and yet they have done so, as Hogan, points out in the cast, for the most part. With some corner cases and bugs that haven't gone away.
There is so much more they can do particularly on the client side which would lead imho to a greater experience for us all and I mentioned some of them. Hogan's opinion is that they are going to be added slowly maybe but eventually. Maybe not exactly as we'd like them but progress is good.
Kindly noted.
Regarding your comment "when an unnamed knock off started, the guys doing the hard coding were having a tough time of it just producing a 10th of the cards, withOUT full rules enforcement".
I don't think that is a fair comparison. If you are speaking about "Forge", then I highlight that this knock off is coded by volunteers, which makes a huge difference because the time which they can dedicate to the coding is limited. This is not their day job. Plus, they managed to create an AI, something which the Magic Online team have never done.
Respectfully, I think THAT's the exaggeration. There was a time when that would likely have been true because the libraries and technologies and graphics were primitive and a lot needed to be improvised or just plain invented in order to put together a MMO or even a game like Portal/Portal 2 (which I admit I haven't played but is the kind of game of which you speak.) The technology has surpassed these games so much that spinoffs have been invented from them (League of Legends for example off of Dota off of WOW arena. Feel free to correct that if it isn't accurate.)
Whereas the game M:TG as we know it keeps growing by leaps and bounds and new mechanics keep being introduced which adds complexity on a logarithmic level. I am not sure how complex the game really is from a coding stand point exactly but I remember when a unnamed knock off started, the guys doing the hard coding were having a tough time of it just producing a 10th of the cards, withOUT full rules enforcement.
Thanks as per usual for listening and especially for commenting with some insight into the discussion. :D
Coding Magic Online to make thousands of card interactions work must not be a easy.
Yet let's not exaggerate. It is a piece of cake in comparison to the complexity in other games which require coding real-life physics, or a massively multiplayer world for example.
I also misread it as each player :( I'm sorry.
Thanks for the comments.
Cut/Ribbons - Misread it as "each player" not "each opponent" my mistake.
Combat Celebrant - Making the combo entirely available in red is defintely something. It does open up some deck design options particularly with Blood Moon.
Harsh Mentor - For me this is just worse than Eidolon most of the time. It has some strong applications against Affinity and Eldrazi Taxes may be another but I think it is definitely a sideboard card. There is a lot of risk of this being a two drop that does nothing against some decks as there is no promise of the value you get from Eidolon. Perhaps it could have made the Top 8 but I just don't rate it that highly.
Thanks for clarifying that. Clearly I have yet to master reading sideways.
Each opponent is definitely much better than each player.
A few things I would note about some of the red cards:
Cut to Ribbons - I am completely unsure why you say Ribbons is symetical. It says each opponent loses X life.
Combat Celebrant - I think the most exciting part of this card is that it allows a mono-red Kiki-Jiki combo kill. Which means support from cards like Blood Moon.
Harsh Mentor - I'm a bit shocked this is not in your top 8 (especially since you have Soul-Scar Mage in there). I think this will likely take the place of Grim Lavamancer in burn decks that ran that, and possibly up to 4 in the 75. It just wrecks affinity in a way that gives burn a much better shot. It also does a lot of work against Eldrazi taxes decks.
Overall, I do like the overview!
Cut to Ribbons, Ribbons isn't symmetrical. "Each Opponent", not "Each Player".
Yeah, we sometimes forget, as we reminisce over the near-total removal of multiplayer formats, the decimation of the casual format roster in general, the ruination of any form of chat, and the bugs still extant for months on end, that this is an exceedingly complex game with a mind-bogglingly huge number of moving parts and potential interactions. A quarter of a century of unique cards and yet we are able to play with the vast majority of them with people all over the world at almost any time.
So, what's the best card to represent the Kwisatz Haderach to cast from As Foretold?
Glad you liked it. :) Hogan Long is a bit of a legend, the hero of Brian David Marshall's "240 miles to Atlanta" story: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/learning-curve/itll-never-l...
Loved the Form of Arrakis nickname. I think I'm going to enjoy making Dune references throughout this block.
I generally agree with your guest host's assessment of Magic Online. It's not nearly as bad as the complainers think. It's just that Magic Online creates a lot of very passionate fans that want the product to be the best it can be. LEagles have basically enabled me to start playing again.
Thanks for this podcast, I enjoyed. Nice special guest you had this week.
You understand why right?
Godwin's Law last week, attacking Pete for weeks, baseless accusations against WotC and the DCI.
Being censored, not allowed to write.
But we knew this already really. There are always unpleasant and needlessly aggravating people. The internet gives them a safe place to do it without getting punched which probably saves some people from being arrested, etc.
It strikes me that there are also different kinds of internet trolls, some of which are entertaining and some which just boggle the mind. The former are deal-able with, the latter must just be ignored.
I am quite sad that Pete finds his own comment section off limits now for interaction because of the trolling but it is the way things are in life. Some good, some bad. Good that we continue getting Pete's great articles, bad that we can't discuss them with him here and feel safe doing so.
Internet trolls reveal something very sad about humanity - namely that some people would choose to act like that in real life if they could get away with it. The internet grants the trolls a whole level of protection online which they would not have offline. Which makes the behaviour even more pathetic.
Edited, please not with this again.
That is the only reason they are in the deck :) I like how easily adaptable the deck is. You can slowly add to it and it gets better. Always appreciate the comments Michelle!