When it comes to electronic mediums, WotC has not really done a lot to inspire confidence...from WER, MTGO versions, and even their own web site re-hosting, there have been issues. 2 years is probably not enough. And I wouldn't be shocked to see a completely different user interface/version come out first, to take advantage of some of the new bells and whistles out there, as well as to update and refresh server interaction, load controls, and stability.
I did try very hard to make sure I recognized there was only a subset of the pros that are causing a majority of the issues.
You are right, and I agree with idea that one of the benefits of Magic is the camaraderie of traveling together and hanging with friends. I've only gone to one GP alone, and it was miserable. I did not have a good time, and the one friend of mine that did make an appearance was with other people, so it would have been inconsiderate to simply monopolize their time. That human aspect is what keeps FNM's running, gaming groups gathering at kitchen tables, and even casual formats being played at stores. I could see a world where all the "big" in person events would be SCG series, or even CFB series events, capped at 500-900. You get the same GP type experience in a better run system, and decent prize support. But again, even that world is 5 or more years off.
I think there will always be paper. Hell, the non-tournament players are the ones making WotC the money, so I never envision a time, as long as Magic exists, that paper won't be a thing. I just envision a world where anything above store level is handled by completely independent groups, and all the real Promotional Tour stuff will be electronic.
Of course, I'll be pushing 60 then if it takes a decade. Who knows if I'll even be up and kicking still, let alone playing Magic. :)
I think you should start another list additionally: The Top 10 Cheapest NON-GOBLIN Decks that Went Undefeated!
From my experience, those Berserkers were at least half Goblins, the Warriors probably, too. So, there are just 2 real non-gob decks in top 10 right now.
At this point, I think it's very unlikely anyone will ever 'beg for mercy' on the Judge Question of the Week section (it's great!), so I think you can drop the disclaimer already. :)
And yeah, I feel you on the bulk card thing. I draft a lot, which means sometimes I'll realize I have 33 copies of Gitaxian Probe sitting in my account (true story), but most often I'll have a hundred Aven Skirmishers. I did make a second account just to hold all of my non-full art basic lands, but I eventually stopped bothering, as the process is so cumbersome.
Food for thought, for sure but I will say my knee jerk reaction to this is what I told BoB in the comments of a Pete Jahn article several weeks ago: I seriously doubt WOTC could get this right. And I don't think it would be wise for them to do despite some of your compelling arguments. For one thing, despite the fact that a large number of "ingrates" (for lack of a better word) play the PT and utter nonsensical negativities about WOTC on a regular basis, most pros I know of are NOT like that. The PT and GPs are some of the best things that have happened to the game. I don't see how making the events totally electronic changes things either, except that those who are not heavily invested in a mtgo collection would have to consider doing so in order to compete at the top levels. That might not seem like a comparable difficulty to building and maintaining a paper collection but it isn't chicken feed. I don't see WOTC abandoning the base of their product's popularity to support a medium they have consistently failed to do well in, either. MTGO really is NOT the apex of what it could be and that is not for lack of effort or interest. Improvements are happening all the time online and I expect that to continue but I don't think 2 years is enough time to make it ready for pro level events. It still struggles with PTQs/PPTQs.
And for another, one of the things that makes GPs popular is the social interaction as strange as that might seem. You travel long distances (maybe) to play for outstanding prizes (hopefully) in a variety of formats and trade with players from all over and it isn't just about playing the game anymore. Human nature makes it into something more, as per Gaming Conventions since time immemorial. Those "Meat Resources" have a sum synergy greater than their parts. Even with all the hassles involved in utilizing them.
It might very well be in WOTC's plans to make paper magic the sidelined or even obsoleted product but I really doubt it. It is hard to substitute Online interaction for the incredible sense of fun when you crack a pack or draw your seven, or even roll the dice to choose who plays.
in this current meta/field of top decks.... how do i know when is too early to cast a mentor? assuming my deck is mostly cantrips and counterspells... is there ever a situation when you can cast a mentor too soon? when compared to delver and pyromancer decks, with which its almost always the correct to drop those 1cc and 2cc crits ASAP. but with mentor, i notice that every time i use a lotus or mox to drop a mentor on t1 or t2, it just gets toasted if i am not packing FOW or misstep. is that just the 'nature of the beast' or should i be waiting until i have protection for my mentor before dropping it? i assume it has to do primarily with how many mentors i am running main deck, if i am agro/control, and my matchup. or do i just always take the risk and drop mentor ASAP?
Didnt MTGOtraders use to have a lower limit on the prices for cards of each rarity e.g. 0.1 tix for a rare as a minimum? If that was the case then did they abandon that policy because of the new interface?
I play mostly (90%+) Casual games in the JFF room.
My preferred format is Modern. I find that, in general, there are less games starting and the opponents that I face generally are using tournament tuned decks, fully powered up rather than "Fun" decks.
I found the same thing when I played vintage in JFF, not fun for me to play against P9 decks.
As for the secondary economy, Look at the prices of Mythics for SoI. 5/18 are currently less than one ticket. It used to be a very rare event when any mythic dropped below a tix. Many rares are .01-.02 each. Previously rares were usually .1 tix or above.
We don't have access to the data to know that answer. The answer would depend on how many players left MTGO and did not return. While the number of users has grown, the Magic player base in general has as well. Wizards probably has the data, but the sky would literally fall before they willingly released it.
If you at some point run low on ideas for an opinion sections then I would like to read a piece on the V3 to V4 transition in hindsight. At that point it seemed that the sky was falling but somehow it did not. Some of the questions which could be followed up upon could be:
a) What could WotC have done differently knowing what we do now?
b) Is V4 worse than V3? It seems the number of complaints have leveled out at the pre-transition steady state.
c) Has the mtgo economy collapsed/changed? The $25-list is getting longer and longer but is the value concentrated in fewer cards? And has it something to do with the transition? Maybe V4 killed casual playing and that changed the economy?
d) Has all the negative players left or have they just stopped complaining?
e) Will next time be different?
f) Has it had any effect removing the official forums?
I like the Ooze, and have played it in this deck before. The current version doesn't have it in there, but a reasonable argument could be made to include it. If I included it, I'd probably put one in the board, over a Skyslasher, and one main, in place of an Aspect.
Probably hard to bust it completely in a creature heavy format like Tribal Wars but I am sure AJ and I built a few pretty broken variants back in the day. Sadly not sure they'd stand up todays expert level decks.
I might do that.
When it comes to electronic mediums, WotC has not really done a lot to inspire confidence...from WER, MTGO versions, and even their own web site re-hosting, there have been issues. 2 years is probably not enough. And I wouldn't be shocked to see a completely different user interface/version come out first, to take advantage of some of the new bells and whistles out there, as well as to update and refresh server interaction, load controls, and stability.
I did try very hard to make sure I recognized there was only a subset of the pros that are causing a majority of the issues.
You are right, and I agree with idea that one of the benefits of Magic is the camaraderie of traveling together and hanging with friends. I've only gone to one GP alone, and it was miserable. I did not have a good time, and the one friend of mine that did make an appearance was with other people, so it would have been inconsiderate to simply monopolize their time. That human aspect is what keeps FNM's running, gaming groups gathering at kitchen tables, and even casual formats being played at stores. I could see a world where all the "big" in person events would be SCG series, or even CFB series events, capped at 500-900. You get the same GP type experience in a better run system, and decent prize support. But again, even that world is 5 or more years off.
I think there will always be paper. Hell, the non-tournament players are the ones making WotC the money, so I never envision a time, as long as Magic exists, that paper won't be a thing. I just envision a world where anything above store level is handled by completely independent groups, and all the real Promotional Tour stuff will be electronic.
Of course, I'll be pushing 60 then if it takes a decade. Who knows if I'll even be up and kicking still, let alone playing Magic. :)
I think you should start another list additionally: The Top 10 Cheapest NON-GOBLIN Decks that Went Undefeated!
From my experience, those Berserkers were at least half Goblins, the Warriors probably, too. So, there are just 2 real non-gob decks in top 10 right now.
At this point, I think it's very unlikely anyone will ever 'beg for mercy' on the Judge Question of the Week section (it's great!), so I think you can drop the disclaimer already. :)
And yeah, I feel you on the bulk card thing. I draft a lot, which means sometimes I'll realize I have 33 copies of Gitaxian Probe sitting in my account (true story), but most often I'll have a hundred Aven Skirmishers. I did make a second account just to hold all of my non-full art basic lands, but I eventually stopped bothering, as the process is so cumbersome.
Food for thought, for sure but I will say my knee jerk reaction to this is what I told BoB in the comments of a Pete Jahn article several weeks ago: I seriously doubt WOTC could get this right. And I don't think it would be wise for them to do despite some of your compelling arguments. For one thing, despite the fact that a large number of "ingrates" (for lack of a better word) play the PT and utter nonsensical negativities about WOTC on a regular basis, most pros I know of are NOT like that. The PT and GPs are some of the best things that have happened to the game. I don't see how making the events totally electronic changes things either, except that those who are not heavily invested in a mtgo collection would have to consider doing so in order to compete at the top levels. That might not seem like a comparable difficulty to building and maintaining a paper collection but it isn't chicken feed. I don't see WOTC abandoning the base of their product's popularity to support a medium they have consistently failed to do well in, either. MTGO really is NOT the apex of what it could be and that is not for lack of effort or interest. Improvements are happening all the time online and I expect that to continue but I don't think 2 years is enough time to make it ready for pro level events. It still struggles with PTQs/PPTQs.
And for another, one of the things that makes GPs popular is the social interaction as strange as that might seem. You travel long distances (maybe) to play for outstanding prizes (hopefully) in a variety of formats and trade with players from all over and it isn't just about playing the game anymore. Human nature makes it into something more, as per Gaming Conventions since time immemorial. Those "Meat Resources" have a sum synergy greater than their parts. Even with all the hassles involved in utilizing them.
It might very well be in WOTC's plans to make paper magic the sidelined or even obsoleted product but I really doubt it. It is hard to substitute Online interaction for the incredible sense of fun when you crack a pack or draw your seven, or even roll the dice to choose who plays.
Entertaining and illuminating. Even if you aren't a Vintage player, there is a lot to learn from this article.
Great job, wappla
Only 6 years? Seems like longer! Will need to peruse this leisurely.
in this current meta/field of top decks.... how do i know when is too early to cast a mentor? assuming my deck is mostly cantrips and counterspells... is there ever a situation when you can cast a mentor too soon? when compared to delver and pyromancer decks, with which its almost always the correct to drop those 1cc and 2cc crits ASAP. but with mentor, i notice that every time i use a lotus or mox to drop a mentor on t1 or t2, it just gets toasted if i am not packing FOW or misstep. is that just the 'nature of the beast' or should i be waiting until i have protection for my mentor before dropping it? i assume it has to do primarily with how many mentors i am running main deck, if i am agro/control, and my matchup. or do i just always take the risk and drop mentor ASAP?
Yes, rares used to have a floor of a dime.
As far as I'm aware, it changed in relation to no particular software update, and once MTGO Traders changed it, it quickly spread.
Yeah I was thinking of it as "No more goblins" ;p
Yes. I remember that! If you mesn NGA ;)
THIS is what I was referring to on NMG about 6 months ago. Well, one of the factors in that thread.
Didnt MTGOtraders use to have a lower limit on the prices for cards of each rarity e.g. 0.1 tix for a rare as a minimum? If that was the case then did they abandon that policy because of the new interface?
I play mostly (90%+) Casual games in the JFF room.
My preferred format is Modern. I find that, in general, there are less games starting and the opponents that I face generally are using tournament tuned decks, fully powered up rather than "Fun" decks.
I found the same thing when I played vintage in JFF, not fun for me to play against P9 decks.
As for the secondary economy, Look at the prices of Mythics for SoI. 5/18 are currently less than one ticket. It used to be a very rare event when any mythic dropped below a tix. Many rares are .01-.02 each. Previously rares were usually .1 tix or above.
You are right. And that is why I suggested an Opinion section and not a data section ;)
We don't have access to the data to know that answer. The answer would depend on how many players left MTGO and did not return. While the number of users has grown, the Magic player base in general has as well. Wizards probably has the data, but the sky would literally fall before they willingly released it.
But has there been long term effects or is it all history by now?
The number of players playing mtgo was halved during this period, one can see it on how fast prerelease queues fire/number of them in an hour.
That is pretty skyfalling for me.
By the way the "4c Drew" name is more silly than I remembered. It is a Nancy Drew reference. Because clues.
If you at some point run low on ideas for an opinion sections then I would like to read a piece on the V3 to V4 transition in hindsight. At that point it seemed that the sky was falling but somehow it did not. Some of the questions which could be followed up upon could be:
a) What could WotC have done differently knowing what we do now?
b) Is V4 worse than V3? It seems the number of complaints have leveled out at the pre-transition steady state.
c) Has the mtgo economy collapsed/changed? The $25-list is getting longer and longer but is the value concentrated in fewer cards? And has it something to do with the transition? Maybe V4 killed casual playing and that changed the economy?
d) Has all the negative players left or have they just stopped complaining?
e) Will next time be different?
f) Has it had any effect removing the official forums?
Thanks for continuing with the rules puzzles. I frequently get them wrong or only half right.
I like the Ooze, and have played it in this deck before. The current version doesn't have it in there, but a reasonable argument could be made to include it. If I included it, I'd probably put one in the board, over a Skyslasher, and one main, in place of an Aspect.
Probably hard to bust it completely in a creature heavy format like Tribal Wars but I am sure AJ and I built a few pretty broken variants back in the day. Sadly not sure they'd stand up todays expert level decks.
Why no Scavenging Ooze in your 75 for the Mono Green aggro deck?
I'm finding that the judge question section is becoming my fave in the article...keep'em coming Pete.